Oral History Interviews

Below are two interviews conducted by Kepa and Onaona Maly with Aunty Arline Wainaha Puulei Brede-Eaton. Aunty Arline grew up in Puuloa and has been an incomparable resource. The first interview was done in 1997 and the second was in 2011.

The following information is a paraphrased summary of historical recollections collected during an informal interview conducted by Kepa Maly on March 4, 1997 with Arline Wainaha Puulei Brede-Eaton, a.k.a. Aunty Arline and Kupuna Eaton. Aunty Arline gave her permission for release of the interview records during the meeting and interview with Sister Thelma G. Parish on May 2, 1997. The information was collected as a part of the effort to develop a site preservation plan in conjunction with proposed development on a parcel of property on the Ewa Plain, in the land of Honouliuli. The property is generally situated on the coastal flats, between Oneula and Kualakai, and while the area has been impacted by cattle ranching and WWII military operations, a number of native Hawaiian cultural sites still remain on the property.

Born in 1927, Aunty Arline has lived in Puuloa nearly all of her life. Aunty’s hanai parents had been going to the Puuloa vicinity for years—Papa Brede oversaw ranch operations for the Dowsetts—and by the time Aunty was born, had bought land and built a home at Puuloa. Initially the family spent weekends and holidays at Puuloa, living in Kalihi on weekdays. Aunty observed that many of her earliest memories are of her days at Puuloa, and today she is one of the oldest longtime native Hawaiian residents remaining on the land.

In those early days, Aunty recalls that they were among the few families living in the area. Besides her family, Dowsett Ranch had about 12 cowboys, all Hawaiians, and their families. Few other people lived in the area. When asked about her recollections of life and activities in those early years, Aunty Arline shared the following memories:

Interviewee   Arline Wainaha Puulei Brede-Eaton (AE)
Interviewer  Kepa Maly (KM)
Date  March 4, 1997

The whole region was our playground, we’d go to Keahi, go by canoe to Laulaunui and fish, and in the other direction, we’d walk as far as Kalaeloa. As children, we’d never think twice about walking anywhere, the distance was nothing. We would walk from Puuloa to the shore at (Ke) Oneula, and then on to Kualakai, and along the way we would gather limu (sea-weed). There was limu kohu, lipoa, and eleele, and the fish were so plentiful, not like now. We’d catch oio, kala, weke, moana, uu, and all kinds of fish. It was a good place. Back when I was a child, there was more sand also, the entire shoreline was like the beach at Barber’s Point. Today, the shoreline has all of that craggy coral, before had sand between the coral and the water. Things have changed now, I don’t know why.

While no one was living full time out between Keoneula and Kualakai, there were families that would come out for several months at a time. Sort of like my dad them, they’d work in town or somewhere else, and set up temporary residence on the beach. They didn’t own the land, but they would go out and stay for certain periods of time. The people would fish, gather limu, and make paakai (salt). Other than that though, there was no one living out here. There was not much activity in the area behind the shore. I don’t remember that there were cattle back there, and the sugar ended further inland. The CPC had a camp down by Keoneula, and in from there, there was an old piggery and the old chicken farm. The chicken farm was run from around the early 1930s to 1970.

In response to several questions, Aunty offered the following recollections and comments.

KM: When you’d go out into the area of the proposed Haseko development, did you ever hear your parents or any of the old cowboys speak about Hawaiian sites or any stories in the area?

AE: I don’t remember hearing too much about any of the history in the area, but I do remember being told that there were some heiau in the area. I think that site (Site 3209) in the Haseko property, the one that will be included in the preservation plan, the coral stone platform is one of the heiau sites. I remember being told that the heiau in this area were good heiau, the kind used for fishing, rain, and agriculture.

KM:  Where did people get water from when they were out there?

AE: There’s water out there, its wai kai, but we were used to that water, not like today. You can tell that there’s water there along the shore, you can see it bubbling up, and the limu eleele will only grow where there is fresh water coming out of the papa (reef flats). And you know, when I was young, there was a lot more water in the ponds back there. People don’t believe me, but I remember when I was a child, there was a lot of water there.

KM: Do you remember the wetlands?

AE: Yes. That’s the place where Captain Kealakai’s moopuna and I would go play. The water went far across the flats there. If I’m not mistaking, I think it went all the way behind the Barber’s Point beach area. The place was clean too, not like now. There were no kukus (thorns), and used to have plenty manu. We’d go swim in the ponds back there, it was pretty deep, about two feet, and the birds were all around. There were koloa (native ducks) and aeo (native stilts), and people don’t believe this, but there were also iwa. I remember that when they were nesting, I would see their red chests puff out. It seems like when there were storms out on the ocean, we’d see them come into the shore, but they’re not around anymore. The wet land would get bigger when there was a lot of rain, and we had so much fun in there, but now the water has nearly all dried up. They even used to grow wet-land taro in the field behind the elementary school area when I was young.

KM: Do you remember if people made salt out in the project area, maybe by the ponds, or along the shore? Or was it pretty much out at Puuloa?

AE: Well, the big salt making area had been at Puuloa, and some salt was still being made in the ponds there. I do remember that when we’d go fishing, we, and other families would gather salt from the Keoneula area. The paakai was made in the natural kaheka (salt bowls) along the shore there.

KM: Are there any other kupuna, or other old-timers that you could recommend for me to try and speak with about this land?

AE: I am one of the few older people still around. But as I mentioned to you before, Sister Parish (Ms. Thelma Parish) is a good friend of mine. She’s a descendant of the Dowsett family, and is very knowledgeable about the area. I tried to call her last week to see if she could join us in the meeting today, but she’s been away. The Mitsuyasu family are old time residents, they had the first store out here, and someone of them may have some information that could be useful. Also, Ted Farm is very knowledgeable about the marine and fishing resources. I’ll try to find out if there is anyone else that might be around, and I’ll also keep trying to contact Sister Parish.

KM: Would you be interested contributing some of your manao and recommendations to the development of the preservation plan to protect and interpret the cultural sites in the Haseko property?

AE: I am very interested in participating in the preservation plan. I feel that I need to because this is my home, and it is important to care for our cultural resources.

Kupuna Arline Eaton was born in Honolulu in 1927. Shortly after birth, she was taken by her kupuna, Kaniela and Malia Kealoha, to be raised in the Keahi vicinity of Puuloa, near the entrance of Ke Awalau o Puuloa (Pearl Harbor). Her kupuna had lived in the Puuloa-Honouliuli area for years, and from them, she learned about the land, storied places, practices and the importance of respecting the akua and aina.

Kupuna Eaton is also tied to the Lanai families who helped raise Kepa Maly, and they have known one another for many years. She has participated in a number of oral history interviews with Maly, participated in the 1997 interview conducted by Maly with Sister Thelma Parish. Both kupuna were known to one another since childhood, though Sister Parish was the older of the two. Together, their stories confirm and share rich facets of history for the Ewa District.

This interview with Kupuna Eaton was conducted as part of a larger Traditional Cultural Properties Study for the larger Ewa District, but brings important traditional knowledge of Honouliuli, and shares native values for keeping history alive. Kuuwainani Eaton, moopuna of Kupuna Eaton, kindly assisted with the review and release of the oral history transcript. The interview was kindly released for public access on October 21, 2011.

The following is a summary of several topics that were discussed with Kupuna Eaton:

Interviewee Arline Wainaha Puulei Brede-Eaton
Interviewers Kepa Maly and Onaona Pomroy Maly
Date August 23, 2011

KM: [Provides Kupuna with background of the traditional cultural properties study; packet of maps; and oral history program.]

So, how can we ensure that the knowledge of places is passed on to future generations? Is it important that we continued to speak place names of the land? So may I just start… we’ll mahaoi a little bit… please share with us your full name, date of birth, and how you came to be familiar with Ewa and Puuloa.

AE: Well, I was born at a luau. My mama, my biological mama came from Lanai, and they were invited to a luau, the Makini side. It was for their first child. The party was going to be at Kapalama, Oahu. So my Tutu papa, my mama’s father, who was the skipper of a boat belong to the Robinson Gay family that owned Lanai brought mama and my three aunties over. Aunty Manoa, Aunty Mahoe, and Aunty Hannah. So all four of them came to 1033 Morris Lane in Kapalama. And while the party was going on mama felt uncomfortable, so she asked my aunty and them, “let’s go in the house.” And low and behold, hanau ia ka pepe, seven and one half pounds, a baby girl, and that was me.

KM: Ae.

AE: So I understand that they cleaned me up, everything, and my Aunty, Jenny Kalehua Brede… she was a Douglas from Hawaii. She married William Elia Brede. They were at the luau. And evidently, somewhere along the way, she had asked mama for the pepe. Hawaiian style is you never say no, especially if you are related. So she was there, and it was her that cleaned me, wrapped me up, and took me home to 1508 Kalihi Road. And I understand that I kept crying. And after a day or two… See that was on Saturday, and by Sunday, she said to my uncle — at that time they are aunty and uncle — “We better go down to Puuloa, to tutu’s place.” Because he [Kaniela Kealoha] was a Kahuna Pule [Reverend]. So that’s how I got down in that area, and they left me there. I stayed there until it was time for me to go to kula. I’d go back and forth. But all my early part of my years, I was there.

KM:  Yes. So Kupuna, your full name?

AE:  Arline Wainaha Kuuleialoha Nakihei Brede Eaton.

KM:  Ae. And so this luau… When was your birth date?

AE:  November 11, 1927.

KM: Hmm, you are so beautiful. So, do you recall hearing how you were brought out here to Pu‘uloa, horse, canoe, train?

AE: The Brede ohana was pretty well off. They had a kaa, so they drove all the way into the area. No more roads, so you just had to go around, and I don’t know, that’s what they said; and came all the way down to tutu’s place. Because once I got there, I realized when I got older, they didn’t even have a kaa. Tutu papa would have a canoe, a two-man canoe, and that’s how he went around. And I would go with him.

KM:  From Puuloa?

AE:  Yes.

KM: You folks lived… I’m going to pull out a map here [opening Registered Map No. 1639]. You lived near the ocean? Is that correct?

AE:  Yes.

KM: So this is an 1873 map of Puuloa. We’re down here by Kapakule, Iroquois Point.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Here’s Puuloa, the houses. And you said the church was nearby too?

AE: Yes. Oh, here’s the windmill. So it was there.

KM:  Tutu papa had his canoe and you folks would go holoholo out here?

AE: Yes. The reason for that is he didn’t have a kaa, he was a fisherman. And over here, we didn’t have that much water, so because of that, he would go into Laulaunui, all the way up there, and trade.

KM: So all the way in here? Ahh, had taro people up here, yes?

AE: Yes. That’s how they did it. Not that we didn’t have. We had dryland taro, but we shared. We would share with them, that’s how I understood it.

KM:  Ae. So poe lawaia would gather from the ocean and paakai, fish, limu like that?

AE:  Yes. And then they take it up there.

KM:  What kind of fish, you remember?

AE: Oh yes. They had kala, moi, manini, all the different kinds of fish.

KM: There were two fish in particular, which the area was famous for?

AE: The anae, yes.

KM:  They call the anae holo.

AE: Yes, yes.

KM: And there’s a story about…

AE:  The anae.

KM: Traveling?

AE:  From there, going around.

KM: Around the island?

AE: Yes. Tutu told me that. We would sit down, after pau, before going to moemoe. She would sit down and tell me stories. It wasn’t that kind like you hear, they talk about fairytales. It was true stories.

KM:  Yes, true. Even where you said up here at Laulaunui, there is a place where they called it Kapapapuhi?

AE: Yes, yes.

KM: And that famous in the story of the anae holo.

AE: Yes, that’s where it comes from. But tutu them, they don’t talk about that to other people [pauses]. Because some people they come, take everything, or else they leave the place lepo.

KM: Ae, hana ino.

AE: Yes, he doesn’t like that. If you do anything good, they are going to give you.

KM:  So if you malama?

AE: You malama. Malama ka aina, malama i ke kai.

KM:  Ae. So you take care of the land and the ocean?

AE:  Yes, they care for you. That’s why, I tell them, I ride with my tutu on Kaahupahau.

KM:  Oh, so you remember the stories of Kaahupahau?

AE: Oh yes. People think I’m crazy.

KM: So tutu still…?

AE: That thing is sharp, you know. But my Tutu mama put clothes for me, and I ride with tutu on her back. [taps the table, like the side of a canoe] They go and they tap like that [taps four times].

KM:  On the canoe?

AE: Yes, on the canoe. Then we go, I go right on top. Sit on top and we go all over.

KM: Because Kaahupahau is…?

AE: She’s the goddess.

KM:  The shark?

AE:  Yes, that’s what my tutu them say.

KM:  Still malama?

KM:  Ae. Well you mention that practice, tutu would lawaia out here, and then he would kuapo?

AE:  Yes.

KM:  Exchange with the poe who would kanu…

AE:  Yes.

KM: Kalo and other things like that?

AE:  Yes.

KM: So in this area behind Kapapapuhi, the Honouliuli taro lands?

AE:  Yes. That’s where he would go way up there, up in that area.

KM: Speaking then of these place names, there are so many traditions of how places were given their names. Is it important to pass traditional place names down?

AE: Yes, especially if you know it. We need to pass it on. Because otherwise, they are going to give different names. It’s alright to have names, but they have to be the right names. Just like here, Iroquois.

KM: Is there a proper name here?

AE: Keahi. And you know what’s out there?

KM: What?

AE:  Kanuku. That’s out there [gesturing towards that opening of Puuloa].

KM: Kanuku is the entry, yeah?

AE:  Yes, coming into that. We’re not too far away from there. And that’s where I stayed, out there.

KM: Hmm.

AE: Right there where that entrance is coming in. And the thing is, even though we lived there, we moved on [gestures walking along the coast]. Tutu would have a hale over there. Because certain kinds of fish, you go over there.

KM: So seasonally you knew where to go?

AE: Yes. Nobody else lived in the area, but we have to keep it clean. You cannot go in there with your dirty feet. Everything has to be clean. They always had another hale on the side, and that one, you can sit down and eat. And even that has to be clean.

KM:  Sure, like hale kahumu, hale kuku?

AE:  Yes.

KM:  Where they would eat and prepare their food.

AE:  Yes.

KM:  So your hale moena would be separate where you would sleep?

AE:  Yes. And you never needed door. Before, never had all kind bugs until much later. We didn’t know what that was. We never had such a thing. Then they brought the pipi in. Sometimes they ask me why I don’t eat meat. I say, we only ate what was in the ocean. I didn’t die.

KM:  Yes, the ahupuaa.

AE:  That’s what it is, that area. Well, if they want to name that little area. But now…

KM: Yes, they gave the whole name. Kupuna, when we go through the oldest, oldest moolelo and land records, we actually see that Waipahu is a small spring…

AE:  Yes, that’s what it is.

KM: So when the plantation came in, they did just what your Tutu papa said, they took that name. The mill was just a little above there. So they called the whole thing Waipahu.

AE: Yes, that’s right.

KM: So, is it important to speak the names of places?

AE: Yes. That’s why I say Waikele, and Waipahu is just that place. And Kaahupahau used to go in that area. I remember that. Because we would go, my tutu and I would go in that area, go and see. And you see her swimming around there.

KM:  Mano? This big mano?

AE: Oh yes. Yes, that’s why I was telling you. I would get on with my tutu. But people don’t believe me.

KM: Well, that’s okay. Your moolelo is consistent with stories that have been handed down over the generations. And not only here, but other places too… All these stories.

AE:  Yes, and it’s beautiful. I don’t think people understand that, the history.

KM: Yes. Because people don’t understand the history and it is so important to pass it on [pauses]; if this rail project goes through, would a recommendation be to — Take the history from each of these lands and somehow include it into the stories that are being told. Like, they are going to have stations for where the train is going to stop.

AE:  Yes.

KM: Should they put, like our little museum on Lanai, should they put interpretive things that tell you the stories of the land and people?

AE:  Yes.

KM: Maybe even in Hawaiian and English?

AE: Yes, yes.

KM: Like at Waimalu and the story of Maihea and his son who rode the whale from Puuloa.

AE: Maihea, yes. I like that because that way that area will live, it will still be there. It’s not something, that’s what it was before and nobody knows anything about it. Because as it is now, if you look around, everything we have is not ours.

KM:   Ae, nalowale.

AE: Yes. So there we go. So some say, “Why do you tell them everything?” I say if we don’t do it, they going wipe everything out. We tell so that our children will know. So when people come over here, they know what that area is [tapping the table for emphasis].

KM:  So the time for huna is kind pau, yeah?

AE: Yes. Otherwise it will be gone. Then they tell me, “Oh, you getting paid by Haseko.” I said “I don’t get paid by them… ” I fight them all the time. But then God told me, in my prayer, “Get over there. Get over there and find out how you can help.”

KM:  Ae, when you Kokua…

AE: It’s going to be good.

KM:  Yes. So Kupuna, these place names like Waipio, Waikele, Waiawa…

AE:  Waimano.

KM: Yes, and Manana.

AE: See, like Manana, they call that Pearl City. Different. I ask why? Why did they have to give other names like that? It has a name; there is a reason why each one was given. And I am sure that if Aunty Lahilahi [Webb] was living, she would really raise the roof.

KM:  Ae. Well, you will love the moolelo that we are compiling. [Discusses nature of research and collection of Hawaiian records into the study.]

AE: There is a reason for those names. Like go over there to the elementary school, and do a little presentation about the area, and they wanted me to sit down and write all that. So I don’t mind telling them about all that. They should know what their area is about.

KM:  Each place name tells a story.

AE:  Yes.

KM: Is it true that place names were given for a reason?

AE: Yes, they are. Why do they give that name? Like they said, Puuloa. It doesn’t have a hill or anything. But I said “no, doesn’t mean because it’s a hill.” There is a reason for that. Why it comes like that. All the waters come, and there is a reason for it going around.

KM:  Ae, Waiau.

AE: Yes, the swirling waters. Each one has a name. Every single one has a name, and why. The swirling waters, the curving waters, you know.

KM:  Yes. Waipio, Waimano, Waimalu.

AE: Yes, every single one. And I believe that if you really knew anything about it, you would know over there, you would see it. And that’s why you would have all the oysters in that area.

KM:  Ae, the pipi, nahawele, okupe.

AE: Yes, the pipi, good kind. [speaking softly and smiling] I used to go over there, carry the basket over there that tutu them had. But it doesn’t mean anything to anybody else. To me it does. [chuckles] I never looked at what was in there [the little pearls], for me it was what was in there to eat. That’s what I liked, ono!

KM: Hmm. Well, the example of the story with the pipi like that, and they said that you had to “hamau ka leo.”

AE:  Yes.

KM:  You couldn’t talk when you go.

AE: And it’s true. Even when tutu went out, even to go fishing, aole. [gestures, finger to her lips] Hamau. And that’s how you see it coming up, it’s quiet. And it makes sense. You make big noise; they’re all going to disappear. This way [quiet] they’re all coming out, and you choose.

KM: So you take the one you need and leave the rest.

AE:  Yes.

KM: And they say that there was a goddess, a moo?

AE:  Yes.

KM:  Kanekuaana?

AE:  Yes.

KM: And she controlled that.

AE: Yes. She watched, watched over that.

KM: So amazing. This nice old map shows Mokuumeume, even with some of the planted fields, because people lived out here.

AE: Oh yes, had people out here. [looking at map depicting Mokuumeume] I used to like going over here. Because on this particular island, Paahana, the ohana lived in this area.

KM: Paahana?

AE: Yes, you've heard of her. The one from the song.

KM: Yes, oh the one the song is about?

AE:  Yes.

KM:  What’s the song, you remember?

AE:  [thinking] Oh, you sing it for me.

KM:  [singing] He mele keia no Paahana, kaikamahine, noho kuahiwi…

AE:  Yes, yes, that’s it. Now you sing that, I’m going to cry. I cannot help; it reminds me… that’s one of the places that we knew of. My tutu always said, “You go there, malama, take care.” Like what Tutu mama said, what they did to her, that’s not right.

KM:  Yes. And her name lives on in the song by speaking it, and the others are forgotten.

AE:  Yes. That’s right, still lives on. But you know, if I talk to anybody else, it doesn’t mean anything to them. But I like it, I go to certain places, I sing. And my moopuna, tutu sing that again.

KM:  So relative to these aina of the Ewa District, did you ever hear of any heiau around the bays that you remember? And I know that they may not have always spoken about those things. But do you remember?

AE:  I do, but I’ve never really talked about it, because people don’t believe.  No matter what I tell them, so I say, “no use.” They’re not interested in that. That’s why when they have this fellow that talks and goes to the board [asks that his name not be used in the transcript]; he’s telling this, this and that, all that kind. But I don’t say anything. As long as he doesn’t go fool around with my tutu them.

KM:  Yes.

AE:  As long as he doesn’t, I’m not saying a word. If he wants to go, go ahead. But I know different people that were buried in Ewa.

KM:  Well, speaking of that, what are your thoughts about what happens if they are digging the rail and they find iwi? What should happen?

AE:  Well to me, I’m thinking, I know that when the dig up, they are going to find. There was a reason for it being put there.

KM:  Since there was a reason for them being buried there, is that a reason to leave them alone? To leave them in place?

AE: If they could do it, I would say yes. I know it’s not easy, because how they going to work that rail? So something has to be done.

KM: To honor or to respect?

AE:  Yes, to respect them. Have something to honor them.

KM:  A marker or something to indicate…?

AE:  So if they take that iwi, give them a place where they can… Because they’ve been there, way before this thing ever came up.

KM: So Kupuna, e kala mai. Should they be…? If ohana come together and agree, “Okay let’s gather them respectfully," should they put near where they came from or move them down to “Lala land” somewhere else?

AE:  If there is a way where they could be within that area, there’s a reason for it.

KM: So keep them close to where they belong?

AE:  Many of them are buried in those areas because that’s where they’re from.

KM: Yes.

AE:  And it was like they guarded that area for their ohana.

KM: So even though they are dead, they are not gone?

AE:  That’s right.

KM: So their spirit, their aloha for family remains on the land?

AE:  Yes.

KM:  And they protect or watch out for their…

AE:  Family.

KM:  The generations.

AE:  That’s why in this area, they talk about they hear spirits and all kinds of stuff. Maybe they do. I don’t hear it, but in this school, even them, they tell. I pule.

KM:  Yes. This is your ohana.

AE:  That’s why.

KM:  So that also being said, that whole connection to Leilono at Aliamanu and Kapukaki, all the way to Honouliuli, the leaping place of the spirits.

AE:  That’s right.

KM: This was a place of spirits.

AE:  I know.

KM: And if you hana ino them, what?

AE: Pilikia. I’ve seen some, and they tell me when you hana ino like that, you going be like that. Sometimes they get hooio, you cannot be like that, because they are there. But they are the spirits; they probably had no place to go, so that’s where they came.

KM:  Yes, some, they auwana out at Kaupea, Kanehili.

AE: Yes. That’s why I say, “If you don’t hana ino them, they’re good.” But you have to know how. You have to pray, and you talk to them.

KM:  Tutu folks said mihi, mihi aku, mihi mai.

AE: Yes, that’s how. And that’s what I did with my kula [school]. In the beginning they were scared. But you cannot do that. If you want, they can help. I said, “I have no problem, it’s you folks.” Before, they hear the door slam, anything. But now, no more. And we don’t say anything to the new people. They just go merrily along with us. But all of these things are very important.

Oh, this map is wonderful [looking at Register Map No. 1639].

KM: Quite beautiful, 1873, of the Puuloa region. Entrance of the harbor, Kanuku, and where your tutu lived. And across is Halawa. Do you remember Water Town?

AE:  Oh yes, by that… what do the call that military base over there?

KM: Hickam?

AE: Hickam, that’s where Water Town was, as they called it.

KM: Do you remember hearing why Water Town was built?

AE:  [thinking] During that period of time, it didn’t come until… You know Moanalua?

KM: Yes.

AE: There was an overflow, so all people in that area. So they had to move down. How I know is because my dad and he [Damon] were good friends. That’s why, even living in Kalihi, I wonder how we lived in that place, because it’s all Kamehameha lands. Below and above.

KM: [reviews Honolulu region place names] Many of the place names refer to notable people of earlier times.

AE: You write a book about those types of things.

KM: Well, it’s all from talking with kupuna, like you, and when we sat down and spoke with Sister Parish.

AE:  Yes.

KM: And then going through the old native newspapers like that. Your kupuna were such prolific writers. And they were writing because they wanted the history remembered.

AE: Yes, that’s what it was. That’s what they wanted. They wanted people to know, it’s our land. Even though you may have taken it away from us, we still know the area.

KM:  So tutu, as you said, even though it has been taken away, it is still your land.

AE:  Yes.

KM:  It is your kupuna.

AE:  Yes.

KM: So even if the physical remains of the heiau are gone, is the place still important?

AE:  I look at it that way. A good example is, I just went out with this girl. She was looking at the place where Kapolei is. On the right hand they have the place where the kupuna can go. They have a nice place over there. A community center. It’s across the street, so this girl took me there, she wanted to know about that area. So I was telling here from the ocean, all the way up to where we were. I said, “there was a heiau right here.” And the only reason why I know that is because we would have to go down there. Mekia and I. When we would go down to my auntie’s place.

KM:  That was by Kualakai?

AE: Yes, the Kualakai area, because we were going to Kalaeloa. So there was a heiau over there. And that’s where, actually before, they were going fishing, and they had an ahu out there. And I remember that. And Mekia would say, “we go over there, go swim.” I would say “no, tutu said we’re not supposed to go over there.” He’d say, “what tutu?’ “The one over there at Kalaeloa,” Naauao. That’s the one married to Fred Robins. So he tells me “okay.” But when I turn around a look, he’s gone, going over there, and he waves at me, from where the heiau is. Had ahu in that area. But it was interesting. Even though they had that ahu over there, where the girl took me, I said, “You come right up to this area here, the heiau comes all the way.”

KM:  So at Puu o Kapolei, had the heiau there looking down to the ocean?

AE: Yes, yes, that’s right. That’s what I was trying to tell her. That’s what I remembered. I don’t know if anybody else knows about that, because it’s all empty.

KM: Yes, when the military took over, and the plantation above cleared everything, so much was lost. Even when they began quarrying at Puu o Kapolei, they destroyed part of the heiau.

AE:  Yes. All of that all went.

KM:  They don’t think.

AE:  They don’t.

KM:  So tutu, even if we don’t see the physical remains there is still importance on the land?

AE:  Oh yes.

KM: Do you remember when we were sitting with Sister Parish also, one of the very interesting things that she shared was the story about the priest Ka‘opulupulu?

AE:  Oh yes.

KM: And his son, Kahulupue.

AE:  That was true you know.

KM:  And how Kahahana, the king…

AE:  Yes.

KM: The father, Kaopulupulu ran here to Puuloa into the ocean.

AE:  That’s right.

KM:  And what happened?

AE:  You remember her talking to you about that time?

KM: Yes.

AE:  When she was talking about that, I was surprised that she even told, shared it with other people.

KM:  Yes.

AE:  Afterwards I asked her, “How do you know all of this?” She just said, “Because I know, tutu told me.” And she said, “I believe in it.”

KM:  I remember that her tutu, Mii, out Kualoa side was a kahuna.

AE:  Yes, and that’s who it was.

KM:  [Reviews story of Kahekili, Kahahana, Kaopulupulu and Kahulupue and the prophecy of Puuloa.]

AE:  That’s why Kahahana got killed.

KM:  That’s right, he got killed here at Kalauao by the place, Kukiiahu.

AE:  Kukiiahu. But I cannot talk to other people, because they do not know, yeah.

OM/KM:  Yes.

AE:  And now you talk about it, it brings back memories. In the beginning, I have to think about what you are talking about. But now I know. Sister Parish and I would sit down, and I’ve got her paper, you know.

KM:  I’m so glad that you got them. She was working so hard because she wanted to publish her book, but she didn’t live long enough. So it is very important that it not be lost. It was her passion.

AE:  Yes. And she made sit there by the hours, reading… Beautiful.

KM:  Yes, and I thought you would enjoy some of these different maps. They are good for some of the work that you do with the haumana.

AE:  Yes.

AE/KM:  [Discusses genealogical background; work at the Kauhale preservation site on the shore of Honouliuli; and her own kupuna buried at Kawaiahao. Looking through photos and talking story.]

Harry Alama was born in 1958, and began coming to Ewa Beach with his family in the mid-1960s. Harry’s family secured leases on three lots from the Dowsett-Parish family and built homes along the Ewa Beach coast in the late 1930s, early 1940s. When the war broke out they were unable to return to the shore, but after the war, they settled back in. In the early 1960s, development was coming to Ewa Beach and the family decided to give up some of the leases—those are the lands that were later associated with Ted Farm and family.

Harry shared detailed recollections of residents in the Oneula-Ewa Beach area.

The following topics are among those that he discussed during the interview:

•  His dad was a fisherman. The family regularly laid nets and fished in the paipai style. Palani, kala, oio, aweoweo, uu (menpachi), hee, and weke were among the fish they’d catch.
•  In the area of Oneula and Hau Bush, they would catch crabs.
•  He and his family collected various limu, among them were huluhulu waena, manauea (ogo), and lipeepee.
•  Recalls sugarcane fields all behind the Ewa Beach regions, and the occurrence of ponds with fish inland.
•  Described Oneula as once having significant sand dunes. The environment has changed, and he considers one source of the problem being development of the reef runway and the deep-draft harbor.
•  Names various surf spots and speaks about the Ewa Beach Surf Club.

Interviewee  Harry Alama (HA)
Interviewer Leimomi Morgan (LM)
Place  Ewa, Oahu
Date February 16, 2014

LM:  Okay, so here with Harry Alama, and I guess we could just with you going as far back as you can to your connection to Ewa.

HA:  Okay…

LM: Kinda like the questions I sent you.

HA: My connection to Ewa Beach goes back to the family of Bernhard Gustave Cordes, and that’s my father’s uncle. My father’s name is Bernhard Gustave Alama, so he was named after my dad’s uncle. And his wife, Aunty Louise, worked for a lawyer, and the lawyer used to get involved in land deals. And so, through her they acquired the lease for the beachfront land.

LM: And what was her name?

HA: Aunty Louise Cordes, that’s his wife.

LM:  Ohh, okay.

HA: So, this is Sonny, this is his nickname is nickname is Sonny, Uncle Sonny Cordes. So, most people know him as Sonny. And, Uncle Sonny worked for Aloha Motors, he was a car salesman for Aloha Motors, and his oldest sister is my grandma. And the family was real close. My grandmother and my grandfather really kind of supported most of the younger siblings.

LM: And they were the Alamas, too?

HA: My grandfather’s an Alama, my grandmother’s a Cordes.

LM:  What kind of name is that?

HA: Cordes is German. My great-grandfather’s name was Gustave Cordes, and he came to Hawaii from Germany in the 1800s. He came from Bremen, Germany. One of the stories I was told was that he was a part of the Royal Mounted Guard that worked for the queen, and that after she was overthrown, he didn’t have a job, so he moved out of town, he moved all the way out to the west side, and squatted. So, he married a Hawaiian lady, and her name is Mary-Ann. I was told that it was Mary-Ann Kahalewai, but the records say Mary-Ann Ulili.

LM: They always had all kine different names. Ulili?

HA: Yeah, but I think her middle initial was K.

LM:  Ohh, okay. So maybe that was her name…

HA: My dad’s oldest brother left Hawaii in 1938, and what he told me one time, he came in 1986, he came home, and it was I think his 76th birthday. And, he came to my house with my dad, and we talked a lot. He was really book-smart about the culture, he was actually close to my great-grandparents, he lived with them, and then they died. But, he told me…

LM: What was his name?

HA: Teddy, Theodore. My dad’s oldest brother. Theodore Maili Alama. I lost my train of thought.

LM: Okay, sorry! So… Mary-Ann Kahalewai Ulili and Gustave Cordes, that was your great-grandparents. And then, they had…

HA: They had Bernhard Gustave, and Mabel (my grandma) is the eldest daughter of the Gustave Cordes family. So, they had like 7 children. My grandma was the first born. She was born like in 1892.

LM: Okay, so, Bernhard Gustave Cordes and Aunty Louise, but you called him Uncle Sonny, they had…

HA: Yeah, this is the family. They had one daughter who was Sylvia. Mabel is my grandma, my grandma is his oldest sister. There’s also a Theodore Cordes, Uncle Teddy Cordes, which is all different. My dad’s brother told me that my great-grandmother, Mary-Ann, was married before she married Gustave Cordes. So, I’m thinking that Ulili was her married name. ’Cause it’s in the record books, Gustave Cordes and her, their marriage is recorded and it’s on record. So if you look it up, you’ll find it, and any reference to her is under the Ulili.

LM: Okay, so, if we could just connect it down to you through the Alama.

HA: Okay, so my dad’s mom is Mabel Cordes, and she married Aina Alama.

LM:  And so she was the German, but part-Hawaiian.

HA: She’s half-German, half-Hawaiian. But my grandfather is half-Chinese, half-Hawaiian.

LM:  Ohh, I see. And then they had your dad?

HA: So, they had 8 kids. And I think they had 7 in her family (Mabel). But my dad was number 5.

LM:  And then your dad’s name…

HA: Bernhard Gustave Alama. So he’s close to Uncle Sonny because he was named after Uncle Sonny.

LM:  Ohh, I see, okay.

HA: So, getting back to the Ewa Beach story. Uncle Sonny, the extended family… Back then, the families were really tight. We used to all get together with my grandparents’ generation, so there might be like 30 people. Because you have their grandparents, and then their children, and we were like the little children. But, that extended ohana on the Cordes side, one of my dad’s uncles his name is Tommy Chong.  He worked for the Damon Estate, so Uncle Tommy was the Damon Estate driver and mechanic. And that was the job that his father had, his father was the original chauffer back when it was horses, so Uncle Tommy worked for Damon. And, another man, his name is Jackie Roxburg, he worked for Damon and he was the landscape guy, he was the gardener. He took care of all the gardens. Way back Moanalua Valley, before it became what it is, Moanalua was all the way to the ocean, yeah. That ahupuaa goes from the mountain to the ocean. So the lower part of the ahupuaa is where… what is that place called? What is that area below, it’s all developed.

LM:  Yeah, yeah… umm… Mapunapuna.

HA: Mapunapuna! Yeah, okay, that's the lower part of Moanalua Valley. Before that was developed it was just all wetlands. And, I guess the Roxburg family, they kinda took care of all the… my mom said it was really beautiful just to have… like you ever been to the Pagoda Restaurant?

LM:  Umm hum…

HA:  It’s like that. It’s all water, but on top the water everything was built on stilts.

LM:  Ohh, that’s like Waikiki.

HA: So, it’s hard to imagine, but that’s why over there always gets flooded. ’Cause it’s naturally like a wetland. Like Waikiki, if they didn’t have the canal, it would be a problem. So, Uncle Sonny and Jackie Roxburg, who was a member of the Damon workers. And, I’m not sure about this part… but their third house, that was Kui Ching, was another uncle. He owned Tire-Recap Service. Tire-Recap Service, they kinda worked hand-in-hand with Aloha Motors (Uncle Sonny was a car salesman at Aloha Motors), so those three people got leases for the land [in Ewa Beach]. So, if you start at the very first house, where the old road started, the land before that was all owned by the Parish family now, but before that it was the Dowsett family. Like by Punahou, that Dowsetts, they were ranchers, they owned the land up to Fort Weaver Road, and then they ended up buying it all the way along Papipi Road to where the end of the houses were. And so, Mrs… her name was Parish, she passed away already. She owns that land. Kepa Maly did an interview with her, there’s a thing about One‘ula that he did. So there’s a great article, she explains the land that her grandparents owned. And, so after that, the Ewa of Campbell Estate had the land for all the sugarcane. But, it was intermixed with lots of ranchers. So, from where the Campbell Estate land was, they leased out the land, and the first lot was leased to Mr. Francis Ching. He’s another old Ewa Beach family, the Chings. And so, Francis Ching had the first lot, and the next lot was leased to the Matsunaga family, and the Matsunaga family is Emma and Eddie. And then the third lot was Uncle Sonny’s house, the fourth lot was Jackie Roxburgh’s house, and the fifth lot was Kui Ching’s house. So, those three lots, they got together as a hui, and they’re all one acre lots along the ocean. They’re one acre, pretty square almost, one acre. And, my grandfather and Uncle Tommy and all of the relatives, they built the houses, the three houses. And so from 1940, I heard ’39, ’40, I don’t know exactly the time, they built those houses, and they used to go down there and it was just the beach house, you know a weekend thing. And during the war (WWII), the government took the houses away and the ocean was barb-wired up, so they couldn’t go down there during the war. So, from ’41 to ’42, 1942–1945, they couldn’t go down there. And then sometime, I guess around 1960, Jackie… they were already telling him that there was gonna be a big development, so Jackie decided they weren’t ever gonna be able to buy the land, so he gave up the lease. And, that’s when Ted Farm got it. But, my grandparents, my grandfather and the family, Uncle Tommy, they’re the ones that actually built those houses. Then across the street, on the mauka side, those were all big lots, like 4 acre lots. And, I didn’t the people there too well. I knew the people that lived right across the street from Uncle Sonny’s house, that was the Tanaka family. And, I knew um because there was a store called Tanaka Store, and the daughter was my classmate at elementary school. So, I knew them. And then, their nephew, whose family actually owned Tanaka Store, he and I became friends because he used to make surfboards. He’s like maybe 10 years older than I am, but he used to make surfboards across the street from where the beach house was. And, I got two or three surfboards from him. We’re friends till today.

LM:  What’s his name?

HA:  Tanaka. Isaac Tanaka. He’s in that thing [Swaylocks blog online] under “Ike.” His login is “Gutrs” ’cause he owns a gutter company.

LM:  Ohh, okay.

HA: So, during the years from I guess ’50s on to about 1965, the beach house was, I don’t know what was going on. But there was a family that used to go down there a lot, and their name is Philips. And, sometime from the late ’50s till ’65, the used to actually take care of the house. And they live in Ewa Beach. And those brothers are all about 10 years older than I am, down to about 5 years. And their connection is the dad was a police officer, and the police used to buy all their cars from Aloha Motors. Aloha Motors was one time a really big company, they used to occupy the land at the convention center. So, anyway, in 1960, the land that’s right across the street from Ewa Beach Shopping Center, the old Ewa Beach Shopping Center, they developed houses over there. And, that was one of the first places that they actually, the developer went in and built the whole community. So, you just paid your money and then you bought a house. And, then before that, Ewa Beach, you bought a lot, and they you had to get somebody to build a house. So it was little bit more involved, little more hassle. My dad, my grandfather was a project manager and he was also a surveyor for the Army Corps of Engineers, and because of that, he was involved in building all the harbors. And, he took my dad out the Big Island, I think it was probably the ’46, 1946 tidal wave, and showed him the damage. So, my father would never buy a house that was in the tidal wave inundation zone. When they built that subdivision, that new subdivision, it was in the safe zone. And it was low enough in price that he could afford to buy a house, so they bought that house over there. They were just starting to build it, so you had to like sign up. So he qualified, he bought the house, and we moved over there about 1960. And, I’m sure that he bought the house there because it was also close to the beach house. But in 1961, we were sent to Germany, my father was in the army. And, we went to Germany, and we were away till 1965, so in 1965, he came back to Hawaii, and that’s when we started going to the beach house. So, my first memories of the beach house were from 1965, my first memories of Ewa Beach are from 1965.

LM: How old were you?

HA: I was seven. Seven years old. I had just made seven. And, we came home in the end of September, so I started 2nd grade in Ewa Beach Elementary School. Then we started to go down to the beach in the summer, the beach house. And at the time, nobody was living there, it was just a weekend house. My father, Uncle Sonny asked my father and my father’s brother if they could fix the house up because my grandmother’s younger sister had moved back to Honolulu from Molokai. She spent most of her life living on Molokai. And she moved back to Honolulu and she was living down by Kapiolani Boulevard on Fern Street. She wasn’t doing too good. She was having bad asthma. I think it’s just that you go from a really country, rural world to the city, it’s just hard. So, Uncle Sonny let her stay at the beach house. And she moved in down there around ’67–’68. And she lived in the beach house till she died in 1974. And Aunty Girlie, she kinda was our surrogate hanai grandma. ’Cause my grandmother moved to the mainland I think just after I was born, just before I was born. She moved to the mainland and she never came home, she just came home for vacations. But Aunty Girlie, she took us in as her grandchildren. And she was only a mile away, and I spent all my time at the beach house. So, she’s the one that used to tell us all the stories about her grandma, which she always said, Mary-Ann Kahalewai. If you talk to the Kahalewais, they’ll tell you that we’re related to the Cordes family. So, I believe Aunty Girlie’s stories were true. So, Aunty Girlie, whose name was Wilhelmina, she was a real tom-boy. So, Uncle Sonny and all the brothers, there was Sonny, Wilhelm, and Teddy, they all respected her, ’cause if not she’d give um lickings. So she lived at the beach house for a good 5, maybe 6–7 years and she was as much of a grandmother to me as I’ve ever had in my life. I really love her. So, I used to spend all of my free time over there, my dad used to spend all of our time over there. Even if it was like this [rainy] weather, we’d be at the beach house. And it could be storming rain and we’d be there in the house, just sitting there while my dad would be there. And so Aunty Girlie would tell us all this stuff. She had like a little farm there, she came from Molokai. Her daughter and her son-in-law worked for Hawaiian Airlines, and he was a pilot, so he used to bring back all kind of animals. He used to bring back goats and things. He used to hunt there all the time. He brought back two baby goats, so we had a male goat and a female goat, and so they had milk, and then they had ducks, and chicken. And two houses down where Uncle Kui’s house was, when Uncle Kui passed away, the lady, his ex-wife, Aunty Ah Lan, she was related to my father but I don’t know how. She decided to rent the house out, so she rented it to this guy who started raising pigs. His name was Alfred AhLoo. So, those are all kind of animals. Alfred had a cow at one time. And then, Ted didn’t, he didn’t have pets. Animals were always for food. But, he had raised some things, he had a horse because his son, his brother-in-law was drunk one night and he promised to get a horse for the youngest son. And so, when the time came that he was supposed to, the son said, “I thought you gonna buy me a horse?” and he actually bought him a horse. And then, when the ranch that was kind of taking care of the horse, when they closed up, they brought the horse down to the beach. But, we never rode it, it was kind of an old horse.

LM:  Because these were all acre lots, that’s why?

HA: Yeah. And, almost every single lot, except for Uncle Kui’s lot, the land, they didn’t even use it all. The corral was small, it wasn’t a big corral. And behind, there was a water tank and pump. But, by the time we came back from the mainland, they weren’t using the water tank anymore. There were two wells. The Matsunaga family had a well and the Roxburg family had a well, but the water was brackish water so we couldn’t drink it. So the water was only useful to irrigate the grass, and the land that I would say, a good quarter of the lots were just kiawe. Haole koa and kiawe. Just, you know, just real wild. And only the close part to the water was where we had opening area. And Uncle Sonny’s was probably the one lot that had the most open area. And that was good so Aunty Girlie had lots of space. The two goats were like, they were a combination of like watch-dog and grass-cutters, ’cause they eat grass. That was a really good time. I really had a good time there while she was alive. She passed away in September of ’74, and then after she passed away, Uncle Sonny decided to just come down every weekend, ’cause he was kinda getting old already and time was short. And then, after he died, his daughter Sylvia, who never, ever came down to the beach, she started coming down. And she came down every weekend until she had to give up the house. So, over time things evolved, but by then I was already married, then. I moved to town in 1982, so I’ve been living in town since ’82. I only come out [to Ewa] to see my mom and dad and go beach. My father passed away in 2006.

LM: Who is your mom?

HA:  My mother’s name is June. She’s from Japan.

LM:  Ohh, okay.

HA: But, during the summers, from about the time we were 4th grade, 3rd or 4th grade, we didn’t go to summer fun anymore. We went to the beach. And my mom would drop us off, and Aunty Girlie would take care of us, and we would just spend all day at the beach, go swimming all day long. We would hang out with Aunty Girlie, she would tell us stories about all kinds of stuff. She taught us basically what to do and it was good that she had kids around ’cause most of her grandkids were all Kailua side, or Maui, or Molokai. So, we spent a lot of time down there. Seen it change, seen it change a lot.

LM: And so, does your mom still live in the house in Ewa?

HA: She lives, yeah same house I grew up in. She’s never gonna leave there. It’s got too much emotional… it’s actually, there’s a lot of aloha in that yard. She has the best mangoes, I mean it, she has the best Haden mangoes that I’ve ever tasted. And at one time she had the best limes. The lime tree got messed up from white flies, so it’s only about 3 feet tall now, used to be really big, but it still has really good fruit. I love the limes. And, everything my dad planted grew really well. But then he decided to concrete over the whole front, so a lot of the stuff we dug out. You know, I think there’s just a lot of love in that yard, so if she goes, I don’t think the trees are gonna be the same. There’s something there.

LM: Yeah. So, in the blog, Swaylocks, you guys talk a lot about this surf club that you guys had…

HA:  Yeah, like for us, for my father the ocean is about fishing.

LM: So your dad was like a fisherman?

HA: My dad loved the ocean, but he was past playing in the ocean. And so, that’s what we did, we played in the ocean. My dad liked to catch fish. But, what we used to do is we used to catch fish with nets, so we would do the paipai nets, and what happens is they’d be sitting down and maybe watching the water and somehow they can see the fish. And, they could see the fish, I guess their tails or something. So they would wait and wait, and we’d have everything ready, and then all of a sudden they’d go, “Let’s go!” and we’d all get together and they would take a big, huge airplane inner tube with the net, and they’d lay it out. And once they got it laid out, then they’d make us line up, and all of the kids would jump in the water and we would swim out and we would splash and splash and we would make a lot of noise. And then, in about 5 minutes, they would start pulling the net in, and you either catch, or you don’t catch. And most of the time we’d catch limu. ’Cause Ewa beach is known for its limu, yeah? So we would spend the next hour cleaning the net of all the limu. And the fish in Ewa beach that we used to catch were huge. Like the fish eyes like this big, the net [about 4 inches wide].

LM: Wow…

HA: So, if the fish isn’t that big, it’s gonna go right through. So fish like palani and kala, they’re generally pretty good sized fish. We catch awa and oio, and you’ll see some pictures in that blog if you actually look. The fish, generally like this [3 feet] long. And, it was either awa, oio, and kala. Kala and palani were like this [2 feet] long. And then, sometimes we’d catch sharks. Wouldn’t be on purpose, they’d just get caught. So that was the main way of fishing. And then the next level of fishing would be to go out in the water with scuba tanks. And so, they would go, and it was always only the men. So, we didn’t do that till we got older, like high school age. But they would go out and they would be gone for an hour, maybe two hours, and they would come back and they would have a lot of fish.  And the fish would be like aweoweo or menpachi. Sometimes weke, occasionally they’d catch the squid. But they would be going way out, so normally you don’t get the squid way out, it’s usually close in. And then, we would catch crabs. Outside of the place called Hau Bush Beach, now everybody thinks this [points to the map] is Hau Bush, this is not Hau Bush. Hau Bush is over here [more towards Puuloa]. So between Oneula park, over here there’s two really big parks. One park was the Del Monte park, which is the one next to it, and this is called CPC and that was for California Packing Company. And then Ewa Plantation had a park, which was right next to Uncle Kui’s house. And Ewa Planation park is where the Hau Bush grew, around the garden there was an area [about 12 feet long] that was from here to where that man is [pointing], it was Hau Bush trees. And they had a metal frame, and so the Hau Bush grew up along this metal frame. You could picnic underneath there and it would like a natural shade. And then next to it there was a metal area, where you had open air with metal (??). And then after that was the Del Monte park. The Del Monte park had small, little cottages like 10 by 10 and like 5 or 6 of these cottages. I guess people could stay overnight and go fishing. Outside of that, they had really good fishing, crabbing. We used to go crabbing when I was really young. In one hour we could get a 5 gallon bucket of white crab. And that’s only the male adults. We throw away all the little guys, we put um back in the water, and any of the women, the female crabs, you put it back in the water. You only take the big males, and if you do that, you still get a big bucket. Sometimes you even get two 5 gallon buckets. Come in, and we eat crab, the whole family, maybe like 20 of us, we eat crab for like till you get stuffed. So we did that every weekend. Uncle Kui would make a big, they had this big wok, and he would make chow fun every Saturday for lunch. And then whatever fish and stuff we catch, they had a stove outside and they could fry up like the aweoweo, menpachi, pan fry um, right there. We had it good, man. We had it real good. And then everybody got old. ’Cause Uncle Kui was my dad’s uncle’s age, and he passed away first. And then one by one all the uncles. So, if you look at all the beach houses, the first house is the Ching family, and they were kinda, they had fence along their property, so they were kinda isolated. And he didn’t live there, he rented it out, he had 5 houses on it. He rented out all 5 houses. And then you had Aunty Emma’s house, and then you had Uncle Sonny’s house, and then you had Jackie’s house, which became the Farm’s house, and then you had Uncle Kui’s house and the ‘Ewa Plantation, so there was another fence over here [pointing on the map]. So these four houses were like one ohana, and every weekend if Aunty Emma wasn’t there, then her nephew, Mr. Matson, Bill Matson, he would come. And Uncle Bill had three sons, Billy, Michael, and Matt. And so he’d come down with his three sons and his wife Aunty Maude and they’d stay there the whole weekend. And then we would be at Uncle Sonny’s house until Aunty Girlie moved in. And then, Uncle Ted was living here by the time we came home from the mainland. And he would be there and his wife’s family is the Awai family from Haleiwa, and on weekends, quite often, they would all come down. And that family included the Rosehill family and the Awais, and then he had a whole bunch of friends, like the Young family, which was Alfred Young, we called him Uncle Ah Hung he would come with his kids. And sometimes the Lee family, they all had kids about the same ages. We all went to Kamehameha at the same time, we’re all 5–10 years in age difference, so multi-generational families. And then Uncle Kui who kinda was just him and his wife, so between these four houses we could have like 20 people spending the weekend. What we used to do is we only spent the day there, we would get down there like 8 or 9, and we would leave around 9 or 10, go home sleep, come back the next day. And everybody else would stay. And it was kinda how we spent our weekends. When Aunty Girlie came and lived there, we would go to her and stay there, hang out, and even if it was raining, we would come down and we would hang out. And sometimes, my brother, sister and I, we would be wearing blue jeans and jackets, and we’d be walking outside, but we’d still be there. Just a really good time. And then, at the very end over here [pointing on the map], there was a chicken farm right here. That was owned by Mr. Joe Park. The Park family, interestingly, Joe Park’s brother, Harry Park, and my father we really good friends. I’m named after Harry Park. So, we got to know Joe Park pretty well. His daughter Robin is my brother’s age, and we’re all calabash cousins. So, all of this area, we pretty much, to us it’s just all a big family. That’s kind of it. Anything else you want to talk about? Oh, the surf club?

LM:  Yeah.

HA: The surf club is not from Oneula, the surf club is from the other end, and those guys… so the guys that started the surf club, they’re all like 1960s graduates of high school. So, you have names like the Sadowsky brothers, there were several of them. You have names like the Moody, the Moody brothers. I think there’s three or four of the Moody brothers.

LM:  Yeah, you list all of them in your blog.

HA: Yeah. So the original members of the Ewa Beach surf club would be the Sadowsky brothers and the Moody brothers, the Silva family, they have a store called Silva Store and it’s on Ewa Beach road. And you got this man, Lester Inamoto, and a few other guys. And they kinda just created this club, apparently they were all really good surfers. But they were before my time. They were from the other side of Ewa Beach. We stuck to this side, which was really just four beach houses. I knew all these kids that grew up here, but on that end, I only went there like when I was between 7th and 9th grade. And it’s really down here, see Fort Weaver Road, it goes down and it turns into Ewa Beach Road and then the houses along the water. So, a lot of these guys, they graduated between 1965 and 1971. Some of them were like ’73 or what not. But because I went to Kamehameha, I didn’t really hang out on this side too much.

LM: So did you know Mark [Kahalekulu] at Kamehameha? What year did you graduate?

HA: Mark is a ’74, I’m a ’76. My brother’s a ’74. So, Mark, and my brother, and two other guys went to Kamehameha from Ewa Beach. And they all had to board. At one time Mark was one of my closest friends. We spent a lot of time together from about 1972 till around 1976 when I started working full time.

LM:  Did you board, too?

HA: (Shakes head “no”) When I went to Kamehameha they changed, the expanded the bus service.

LM: Ohh, so they had just changed it, like right before you.

HA:  They did, they said they didn’t want another Alama up there. (Jokingly)

LM:  [laughing]

HA: Nah, I think that because we paid for the buses, it made more economic sense because they could expand the school and have more kids versus just having boarding students. But I think boarding students was probably better. So anyway, they created that Ewa surf club with those guys and they actually did really well in the contests, but again like I said it was kind of before my time. But, I’d say a good handful of those guys were as good as anybody else on Oahu as surfers. And they even won like the Akahi International Surf Contest, John Sadowsky and they said Lester [Inamoto] was one heck of a surfer. And several of the other guys. I knew a couple of the ones that were younger, a family that has been in Ewa Beach a long time is the Eaton family. And you may have gone to school with a couple of them.

LM:  I’ve just heard their name a lot.

HA: Cal’s kids and Clayton’s kids, they’re about your age. The youngest one is I think my daughter’s age. And Cal is three years older than I am, so I knew him both from Kamehameha and from the beach. His brother is five years older than he is, so I only know him from the beach, and I didn’t know him very well at all because he moved out of Ewa Beach when I was still in high school. But I just remember him because he’s just this really big, spooky guy. And the other families, like the Philips family that used to watch the house, Tommy has quite a good memory about stuff, and they still like on Papipi Road. But they kinda moved down to Ewa Beach in ’58 or so. Guys like Mark [Kahalekulu] I didn’t realize how long his family’s been here. Other families that would be like good value is the Mitsiatsu family. And, I think Myron still lives in Ewa Beach, John moved to Mililani. But if you go back and you look at the interview that Kepa did with the Parish lady, she talks about the Mitsiatsus and they were here way back. They used to make charcoal or something. So, their connection to Ewa Beach goes way back. They’re another family that had quite a bit of land in Ewa Beach. But I don’t know exactly where they got the land. And then of course the Parish family who are the descendants of the Dowsetts. If you look at this map, the Parish family, they’re all this side where Ewa Beach Road goes like this, that then there’s Parish Drive like down here, and then the Mitsiatsu family, see this big open lot, that’s their lot. But they owned all this land over here. They made houses and sold it. They’re an old time family. We all grew up together, we all know each other and they’re very involved in little league baseball when I was a kid. I’m not too sure about other really old time families. Most of the people lived along here, along here, and then along the beach, there’s two roads. One called Pohakupuna, that’s the road that Mark’s family. And then the other is Fort Weaver, so this came in later, so we had the two roads. Fort Weaver went all the way to Iroquois Point and then Pohakupuna went all the way down, and then they built all these other houses. And see that park right here, my dad’s house is like right there. I think it’s the white roofed one. That’s where I grew up there. So, this was the first increment. From here, along this street, this is the first increment and then this is the second increment [pointing on map]. Might be like second, third. So when I grew up Ewa Beach consisted of these houses, and these houses, and then the houses that were hereSo when I grew up Ewa Beach consisted of these houses, and these houses, and then the houses that were here…

LM:  Along the beach.

HA: And right here is Campbell High School. This is North Road, so that Kulana Village thing that they built is around here. Is where they built the low-income housing. Then later on they built this really big area here called Ewa Beach Estates. It’s bigger than this I think, it goes way back. And this was all sugarcane field we used to play in. And this was all sugarcane, this was all sugarcane, [pointing on map where houses are today]. There used to be, probably like over here somewhere, there used to be artesian ponds.

LM: Oh, yeah there still is I think.

HA:  We used to go swimming in them. Not the salt water, the artesian ones. And it was somewhere around here, up higher. And we used to go swimming in those ponds, it was really cold water and used to have lily pads and used to have carp and we’d go swimming in there. And then way back here, way back here somewhere they had artesian ponds. This was like a big U shape, and this was like three separate ponds. We only swam in the one that was furthest, the other ponds had lots of fish and stuff and we didn’t want to go swimming in them. The first one was probably like this [points to a small area about 5 feet wide] we had a hill so we’d come down this hill, and we’d ride our bikes and we’d launch um up in the air and we’d land in the water.

LM: [laughing] That sounds fun.

HA:  Yeah…

LM: Do you miss it? The way that it was?

HA: Yeah, what I really miss is, before they built the bigger [housing] area, there still was a lot of open space in here. Like there’s Makule Road and stuff which was a really old road, there still was a lot of open space. In fact, the Mitsiatsus owned a lot of this and they didn’t develop it. And had really old, old buildings, and we used to say they were haunted. So, used to be spooky, you ride by it, and you might ride like the length of this building [the Zippy’s restaurant in Ewa], with just kiawe trees and haole koa, and then there’d be this building but there was nobody living in it, real old, it was like for ghosts. And then, you gotta go past that to get back to the houses again. It was kinda like, everybody’d make up stories. But they built all houses on it, so along in this area, they developed it all. But when I was a little kid, they didn’t develop it, had houses in here, and had houses along the beach, and this area over here didn’t have too many houses. So, what I was getting to is they didn’t have anything. I think there was like only 2,000 houses, max, this had like 1,000 or less (one section on map) and then all this was like 1,000 (another area on map). And so, on Halloween, we would go everywhere. Just get plenty candy. And the families would know, like if you went twice, they’d throw rocks in your bag.

LM:  [laughing] That’s funny.

HA: [laughing] And if you were a bad boy, guarantee, that night your mom and dad would know about it. So, that’s how you kinda take care of stuff. Everybody takes care of everybody, right? And it was good. I think a lot of the moms stayed home. Everybody, we were like I guess, I wouldn’t say lower income levels, but we weren’t like low class. You know when you’re poor but you don’t know you’re poor?

LM:  Yeah...

HA: You have everything you need, so it don’t matter. That’s how life was. And, most of the people worked for the military in one way or another. Either as a civilian, ’cause there was Barber’s Point, there’s Pearl Harbor, there’s Hickam, and there’s Schofield and Wheeler. So, everybody sorta worked for one of the military places, or worked for the plantations. And then a lot of the people over here, they were all business people, lotta haoles in this area. Local haoles. They were more like a different income level, a little higher income level, more business types. But we were all the same, we all grew up together, and probably the richest kid I knew was Timmy, whose father owned the bakery. But, you know, they weren’t rich, they just were able to do a lot of stuff, you know, travel every year. And I spent most of my time staying with Timmy. Timmy’s house is like right over here [pointing on map, close to his parents’ house] 5 houses away. And I really liked growing up in Ewa Beach because it was small. And I used to get mad when people said I live in the country. Because it wasn’t country, like I think of farms and stuff, it was just real regular houses and stuff, it’s just that we were real isolated. But down here [by the beach] was country, ’cause one acre lots, that’s kinda nice. That part I miss, I miss that a lot. The open space, we had our own private beach. One of things that’s kinda sad is the sand movement is altered. I think it’s a combination of the reef runway and the development of the deep-draft harbor, but in front of here there is very little sand. And if you go down to the One‘ula Beach park now, there used to be big sand dunes at Oneula, right here. Big sand dunes, like maybe 20 feet high, right along the water. And there were like craters. We used to go down here when I was like in 5th grade, 4th grade, and we used to make fires and stuff inside there at night and hang out. And dad them, they’d all be down the beach house and you know we could sneak away. There were pillboxes all along the shore, there were like 7 pillboxes along the shore. And they were like as big as a car. And there were two separate rooms. The room that faced the ocean had this long slit window for the machine gun. And then the back room was higher.  The first couple were kinda buried underneath the sand, so only half of them were sticking up. And there was so much sand in there you couldn’t go in um. But as you got further down, there was less sand in um and you could actually go in um. And we used to play in there. Just really different. But, they took all of the pillboxes out, sometime, I don’t know when. They just tore um out. And then, I hadn’t gone back here since high school time, so I don’t know too much about the changes back in here. I know the road changed from going straight to having a big turn, it kinda went like this, but it used to be just one long straight road. And it was like, I can’t describe it. I guess if you go down to like Sandy Beach, and you’re driving along down by Queen’s pond, where there’s just no real roads, like that, but with really deep potholes. As big as this booth [about 4 feet by 3 feet], so it really kept the speed of the cars down.

LM:  [laughing] That’s good.

HA: And that’s kind of it. One thing I regret, I always thought that, if anything ever happened I could live off the ocean. But, I don’t think you could live off the ocean anymore. I don’t think that there’s enough food out there. And I don’t think the food would be fine, you could eat it all. I think a lot of it has been contaminated by ciguatera. My friends catch a lot of octopus, but not quite as much fish. And, there’s a lot of fish but they told me I can’t tell people where. [laughing]

LM:  Yeah, that’s fine, I understand.

HA: I’d like to go out here one day [Ewa Beach] and try crabbing again, ’cause it’s been a long time. And, if they came back it’d be interesting to find out. But I don’t think people know anymore. Because at one time they built that pipeline, yeah? I think the pipe, there’s a sewage treatment plant somewhere. So they built a pipeline that goes all the way through here. It went right through here, it’s probably right around here [pointing on the map]. And it went all the way out, so I don’t know how that affected it, but nobody’s gone crabbing here since the ’80s. Might be crabs out there. Have you ever had white crab? Haole crab? Sort of like a grayish shell with little spots.

LM:  I don’t think so…

HA:  They get to be like this [1/2 a foot] big.

LM:  Uh uh…

HA: Anything that’s fresh.

LM: You just eat it raw?

HA:  Yeah, anything that’s fresh. If they’re like this big [3 inches], they make um raw.

LM: I’ve had little ones like that, like at parties and just you suck it out and it’s so good.

HA:  It’s sweet, yeah? When you get the big ones, and you cook um, they’re still sweet if they’re just cooked. And they don’t smell as bad.

LM:   Yeah…  [laughing]

HA:  ’Cause that crab has a strong smell. I mean, it’s not like a bad smell, it’s just a real strong, fishy smell.

LM: Okay, so anything else you might just wanna share, like concerns you have or…

HA: Well, no, I think, at one time, and it really has nothing to do with this thing. Like one time I was hoping that we could have a plaque down there somewhere like where all the houses were, where all the people that lived there could have their names. Like a big rock or something. From the old-timers like, I only know from the time that Uncle Sonny guys were there. But I know there’s people that might have been there like before. And from the time that our families were there till today, it went through changes as well. So, you have the original 5–6 families, and then you have all the people that lived there, renting houses, like Mr. Farm rented his house for a while. Families that lived on Francis Ching’s lot, like the Okamuras and the Huddys. I remember them when we were growing up, they were all part of this ohana. And it’s sad ’cause you know when they bought the land [by the beach entrance], we had to park over here and walk all the way down. And it’s a pretty good walk. But then my friend Joey lives at the first house, his wife grew up over there. So he gave me the combination to his house, so I can go there when I want. And I been doing that for the last year. But before that, I wasn’t going down there too much. My brother would just go over here [further down west] and surf over here, but it’s really different down this side.

LM:  So, you still go surfing out over here [close to where he grew up at his family beach house]?

HA:  Yeah. Whenever I can.

LM: And what do you guys call it?

HA: It’s called Shark Country.

LM:  Ohh, I see, that’s Shark Country.

HA: So from the end where the houses are, there’s a little point like this, you see the land goes like that?

LM:  Yeah.

HA: This is like a big bay that goes from here to here, the reef is like that. So, from the very end of this side, this is called the Sea Wall because there’s a little place where you can, there’s a turn around and there’s a wall, so that’s called the Sea Wall. And that is the first break. And then Shark Country and Sea Wall are like next to each other, really close. And then after Shark Country, again, because of the way the reef is, Shark Country breaks out here. Hau Bush is in here. Hau Bush is the inside break. And then you have this place called Chicken Creek. Which is because of the chicken farm, and what used to happen was in the winter, the rain would come through and then go straight through the chicken farm. And all the chicken manure would get mixed in the rain water and go out. And that’s why we called it Chicken Creek.

LM: Ohhh, ewww [laughing].

HA: Nobody ever surfed over there!

LM:  Ohhh, [laughing].

HA: And next to that where the park starts is called Sand Tracks. And then after Sand Tracks, and that had the big sand dune right there, after Sand Tracks, there’s a couple of little spots that I never called anything. And then on the corner of the park is John’s, and the name John’s is from John Sadowsky.

LM:  Ohhh.

HA: He was the number one surfer in Ewa Beach in the early ’60s. John Sadowsky, he used to surf out here. I guess he used to surf out there a lot so we called it John’s. Then you got The Cove right here, and then Tree Stumps. And then after Tree Stumps, I don’t know what they call this area, and then you got Barber’s Point which used to be called Officer’s Beach. It’s now called White Plains. So, there were the different places we surfed. And I never surfed from here to here, I never surfed anywhere [pointing specific areas on map]. But, over here is the empty lot side, and there’s a bunch of different breaks. And the very end is the Ewa Beach park. Puuloa and Iroquois Point. But empty lots, and this area there’s a whole bunch of places to surf, but I really only surfed over here. I surfed on this side when I was 7th grade, 8th grade, with my friend Timmy. But I figured, we go all the way over here, we’d have to take our bicycles and chain it up to the fence, and we don’t live over there so when I go over here, I get fresh water, I can shower off. I can leave my clothes and change, so even though it seemed further, to me it took over as far as surfing. And to me, the waves are really nice on this side. I’m probably gonna miss, when they develop this, I’m gonna miss the emptiness that it has right now. ’Cause it’s never been quite as empty as it’s been in the last decade. Over here is pretty bad [pointing on map]. But it’s gonna move as they start opening this part up, it’s gonna move down ’cause there’s just more places to surf. This side, if they make the marina, that would be a huge thing. But if they don’t make the marina it’s not gonna affect the ocean. The land was never ours anyway. This was, that wasn’t, so when we went in here we were trespassing. So, to me it doesn’t affect me. But it affects me that there’s so many cars. In 1976 I started working at Channel 2. I worked night time. I got off at 9:30pm. When I came home after 9:30, not a single car on the road, not a single car. Nowadays, I don’t think you can be alone anywhere…

LM:  There’s a lot of people.

HA: And the same thing for the freeway. At 10 o’clock at night, that road from Pearl City, as you’re coming this way [west bound], very few cars in that section from Waipahu, down. They didn’t have lights, either on the freeway. So, there’s a lot of people in Hawaii and my concern is I don’t think we can support the volume of people now. This is not the end. They’re talking about more houses up here [pointing on map] and they’re talking about Kakaako, 500 foot towers. We’re gonna be bringing in 98% of our food to support that. I would have loved to see this been kept in agriculture, but that’s not my choice, and I can’t tell them what to do. I just feel sad about it, ’cause this was real prime ag. land, had the hot, hot sun, as long as you water it.

LM:  Yeah…

HA: So, it’ll be interesting. And, I’d like to see that [the Lagoon Project] when it’s done, if they allow outsiders. That would be kinda interesting to see what it looks like, but I can understand if they choose not to let anybody else in. They pay big money for those houses. I just kind of, I get a little upset that, what was once ours, it’s no longer ours. We didn’t own it, we were just using it. We used to get 7 kinds of seaweed in Ewa Beach. And I don’t know what happened. It went from it being right on the ocean shore to having it go about 5 feet in, to having it go waist high, to having it go underwater. And I don’t know if they’re still there.

LM:  Yeah, where’s the limu?

HA: ’Cause, my mom used to make lots of different things. The pickled one, the Japanese style. And she used to, there was one called huluhulu waena, and that one is a real fine kind. And she used to make a nori style, not nori, you could buy it in bottles, sort of a heavier, sweet shoyu flavor, and you could put it on hot rice. And then there had one that looked like, we used to call it cabbage. The leaves were really broad and they were flat, and they were brown, brownish color like ogo, that color. And they had like, you like if you go and you buy spring mix at the store and it has that one leaf that looks like the weed that grows in your yard? I can’t remember what that’s called. When I try to think of names my mind goes blank. But, that’s what it looks like. It has little edges, little scalloped like, and it has a broad leaf. But it has the same taste as other ogo, like manauea and stuff. But it just looks different. Had limu kohu if you were willing to go into the deeper water. Ewa Beach has so much sand, that you spend all of your time trying to clean it. ’Cause you know, the limu kohu is a unique kind, it just gets so full of that sand that you gotta spend to so much time. I think it changes the flavor. Then my uncle like the lipepee, that big, fat green one. Kinda almost as big as this, kinda grows like, kinda has like a feathery, like a mossy kinda exterior. I never liked that one. But, he liked that one. I just converted video that I had of Ted Farm, and he was doing Hawaiian foods. So I’ll try to look and see, ’cause he did mention a couple of kinds of limu that he used to catch. It’s too bad that he’s not around. Nobody knew this area better than he did. Nobody spent as much time, he lived right on that beach from about 1976, ’77 he retired, and he lived there and he fished, he lived off the ocean. And the stayed there until he passed away around 2004. I don’t think anybody knew that ocean better than he did. He knew exactly where to go to get what. And it’s too bad ’cause he was a unique person.

LM: Yeah, a lot of the stories are lost on those who have passed.

HA: Yeah, ’cause even his kids, as much as they know, they didn’t live there every day. And he did. The other guy is Joey. Have you heard of Joe Gaynor? Joey still lives there. Joe and I are elementary school classmates. And Joe married the girl that grew up in that house, the first house, the Francis Ching lot. And he still lives there. And he’s gonna be the last one. Joey has permission to stay there from Haseko. And if anybody knows what’s happen to that ocean. Joey lives in Ocean Pointe, but they still have the beach house. Joey and his wife’s name is Lori, and Lori’s maiden name is Okamura. So, they would be a really good resource. Joey, his brother-in-law John. John goes down to the beach all the time. Joey lives there. He can tell you firsthand about what’s changed. ’Cause he’s been living on that beach with Lori for about 20 years plus. And Joey’s older sister was at one time the vice president of Community Relations at Haseko.

LM:  Ohhh, okay. Yeah, we’ll see.

HA: He might be able to give you stories definitely about what’s happened in this area. ’Cause he goes out in the water almost everyday. He takes out a surfboard and he’ll fish from it. He spends a lot of time. If you go to Facebook, well you’d have to be his friend I think. Oh, did you see that Puuloa Forever Facebook site?

LM: Um… no.

HA: Puuloa Forever, I put it up there. Do you have a Facebook account?

LM:  Umm hum.

HA: I can make you a member of that, ’cause I put this up there primarily to see the stuff I shot of the reunion we had. But there’s been a lot of interesting stuff. Really, the resource to me that has everything is the Swaylocks [blog]. If you can go through everything and see the color.

Mark Ehukai Kwock Sun Yoshio Kahalekulu was born in 1956 along the Honouliuli coast, at Ewa Beach. His kupuna father worked for the Dowsett-Parish Ranch on the Puuloa lands, and lived at various locations between Puuloa, Oneula, and Kualakai. The Kahalekulu line originated in the Hookena-Hoopuloa Region of South Kona, and were displaced by the 1926 Mauna Loa eruption. Mark’s entire young life from toddler through high school was connected to the ocean and nearshore lands of the Honouliuli  Ahupuaa.

During the interview Mark shared his recollection of families, practices, fishing, surfing, and walking the Honouliuli coastal lands. The following topics are among those discussed by Mark:

•  In the early part of the 1900s there weren’t many people out here. Then during the war there was no access to the ocean. After the war the fisheries were very rich. Among the fish were moi, awa, kala, palani, manini (and ohua), amaama, aholehole, opae, hee, ula, and crabs.
•  Limu was plentiful, with beds two to three feet high on the shore. When in season, you could smell the limu inland of Pohakea Elementary School. Types of limu included lipoa, kala, and manauea.
•  Parents always instilled in him the responsibility that lawaia had for care of the fishery resources: taking what could be used; not fishing or collecting out of your own area; and sharing.
•  Descriptions of the various reef regions extending from the shore to the deep water at first, second, and third reefs.
•  During his youth he witnessed a significant change in the ocean environment and resources. There were major sewage spills, and people from all over came and took more limu than the papa could restore.
•  Before, the ranch and plantation controlled access along the shoreline, and there were a number of gates that people had to go through to get access. There were no squatters in the early days.

Interviewee Mark Kahalekulu (MK)
Interviewer Leimomi Morgan (LM)
Place Oneula Beach, Mamala Bay, Ewa
Date January 17, 2014
Final transcription completed February 9, 2014

LM:  So, if you want, you can share your whole name, the meaning of your name, and your family connection to Ewa.

MK: My name is Mark Ehukai Kwock Sun Yoshio Kahalekulu. My connection with Ewa is my father and grandfather originally came from Hookena, South Kona. They were paniolo working the ranches in that area during the early part of the 20th Century. I looked up census, and they were listed, my father and my grandfather, in the 1920 census in Hookena.

LM: And what were their names?

MK: Kahalekulu. Raphael Kaihikapuonalani Kahalekulu, that’s my dad. And my grandfather was John Kaihikapuonalani Kahalekulu. And, by the 1930 census, they’re here in Ewa. I always wondered why they moved, and then I was reading a book on the historic volcanic eruptions on the Big Island, and there was a real, real big eruption in 1926, and it started from Mokuaweoweo on Mauna Loa, and it came all the way down and it went all the way down to Hoopuloa, and that’s the name of that flow. That was in 1926, but they showed the extent of the flow, and if this is Hookena here (drawing in the sand), and this is Mauna Loa, the flow came down and all the way to the sea at Hoopuloa, but some of it actually went and diverted above Hookena. So, I can only imagine my family, looking up at night, and seeing the lava just suspended on the mountain above them. I would get out too, I would get out too. So, they came out here [Ewa] and they started working for, as paniolo, for the Kahuā Ranch that was by Barber’s Point. So this was by 1930.

LM:  So your grandfather moved here too?

MK: Yeah, yeah. The stories that I’ve heard, this was way before my time. I was born in 1956, so this was many decades before my time. My father, my grandfather, and my grandmother came and they lived where White Plains, Officers’ beach is now, there’s that stand of ironwood trees on that point right there. That belonged, according to my mother, Leatrice Kam Ing Kulia Chong Kahalekulu, that that belonged to the Shaffer family, and they had lived there before our family came. So, being that my dad worked for the ranch, and my grandfather worked for the ranch, they had gotten permission from the ranch manager, to basically squat on the beach by the ironwood trees. My mother passed away in ’06 [2006]. My dad passed away in 1958 of stomach cancer, but while my mother was still alive, and they had opened up Barber’s Point for the public, I tried taking my mom down there, and asking her, “Mom, where did you folks used to live?” and she would say it was Waianae side of the Shaffers. And when I’d take her to where the ironwood trees are, she goes, “You know, back in the ’30s, didn’t have these big tall stand of trees, they were small.” But it was a marker for them, those ironwood trees, and it still is for everybody. So, I can only imagine that where they actually had, and it was like a shotgun shack, it was like a beach shack. Had plenty room for nets, because my dad and my grandfather were very good fishermen from Hookena. Maybe 10–15 years ago, I went to Hookena for the first time. When I saw the canoes that they had over there, I just totally flashed, ’cause one of my youngest recollections of living in Ewa Beach, was after my father died, my mom still kept his canoe on the side of the house. And it wasn’t a dugout canoe like how you would imagine one normal canoe was, dug out from a tree trunk, it was made out of planks, out of boards. But had an outrigger and it was very narrow. It was, you know, the shape of a canoe, but made out of boards.

LM: And, he [your father] used to use it? He made it?

MK: Yes. And then, at the very, very end, it was squared off, and that’s where they would put an outboard motor on it.

LM:  Ohh, interesting. And they would just take it out?

MK: Yeah. So, when I went to Hookena those few years back, I blew my mind, because, on the beach, it was like, Wow! There was like a dozen of them. And I had never seen um before other than my dad’s. And that was only from when I was a little teeny-weenie kid, like 3, 4, 5 years old, I remember playing on it. So, it was one of those things that showed me that, we were from over there. My family was very, very much into net fishing. So, even after my dad passed away, we still continued that out here [Ewa beach]. My dad was a very, very good fisherman, so he would work for the ranch as paniolo. My sister, see that milo tree there over there [points] that’s my sister’s house.

LM: That one?

MK: Yeah, like two houses away from the right way, that’s my sister’s. Like where that wahine is sitting right there [points].

LM:  Ohh. She lives right there still?

MK: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So, she told me a story, ’cause she’s older than me, she’s 18 years older than me. That’s Yvonne [Leilani Mui Kwai Kahalekulu], Moriguchi is her married name now.

LM: And she was a Kahalekulu, too?

MK: Yeah. So, she had told me a story not too long ago that my grandfather liked to drink. So what he would do, he would get my dad to break horses at Kahua Ranch, because for every horse that you broke, you got 10 dollars. So, he was like 12, 13, 14, and my grandfather would put him on a horse and go make him break the horse, but he [grandfather] would keep the money, so that he could go drink with his friends.

LM:  Ohh… Aue!

MK:  Yeah.

LM:  That was a lot of money! 10 dollars!

MK: That was big money! Yeah, break your neck though, you’re risking your life. So, they would have a lot of drying racks, and even later on, when I came along, we still had these, [points] net, net, net, net, net, net. And it wasn’t that nylon, not string, it was cord. So, even as I grew up, somebody in the family always had to be sewing it, patching it, ’cause we used them all the time. The bottom over here is very, very rough and uneven, so always you gonna have puka. So somebody always gotta be patching that constantly, especially if you have literally miles of net.

LM: Wow.

MK: I remember hearing stories of how much fish over here it used to have. And, there wasn’t that much people over here. I remember, during the war, you couldn’t fish, they closed the beach, and you couldn’t fish. What is that… Martial Law?

LM:  I don’t know.

MK: Yeah, Martial Law. You couldn’t do stuff. You couldn’t have light coming out of your window at night, because they gotta worry about Japanese bombing, and being able to identify what’s happening on the ground. So, even on the ocean, you couldn’t go out and go fish. So, my mom would say that, right after they lifted Martial Law, there was so much fish, because nobody could fish for four years. From 1941–1945, you couldn’t fish out here. So, had fish up the ying-yang.

LM: Wow.

MK: Yeah, but she said, within less than a year, so many people were hitting it, ’cause they hadn’t been able to go all those years, that within a short time, ahh, it was hard to get those big catches of fish again. I remember a story my mother telling, and this is down by Barber’s Point, when they were down there, before we came this [Oneula] side. My dad had located a school of moi, so he went, and with his canoe, he laid the net from the shore, around the school, and it came back to the shore. I can’t even imagine a school this big. And had it almost penned up like cows or something. So, what he would do is, the first day, he would back his truck up to the ocean, and they would use a scoop net, and they would just bring the two ends of the net close to shore so that it would pile the fish right in front of you. And they would just go and get a scoop net and just load up the back of the truck. They would fill up the truck, they would take it down to Chinatown Market downtown, and they would sell um. And I think my mother said, the first day they went do that, they got like 20 cents a pound. They didn’t even dent the school. The next day, my father did the exact same thing, back the truck up, pull the school close, and just start scooping fish into the back of the truck. They took that into Honolulu, they still had fish left over from the day before, so they gave him 10 cents a pound.

LM: Did you guys eat the fish, too?

MK: Ohh, Yeah. And then, the third day, my dad did that one more time, took it into town, they gave him 5 cents a pound. He was so angry, he came home, and he opened up the net and he let all the fish go.

LM: Good [laughing]. So you guys would subsistence fish? You guys would always have fish to eat? It was like a part of your life?

MK: Yeah. And a lot of it was dried. The awa. I know my mother would dry awa. That was her favorite, she loved the belly part of the awa, that was the best. And, because the awa was such a big fish, yeah?

LM:  What would you say was the most numerous fish around here?

MK:  I would think it’s the kala.

LM: The kala?

MK: Yeah, I always call it the official unofficial fish of Ewa Beach, because it’s very easy to find, and very easy to catch. And they get very, very big, and they’re fat, they’re herbivores, so they eat limu. So, especially in the days before, this beach, would have drifts of 2–3 feet high of limu.

LM: Wow.

MK: Yeah, you would be able to smell the limu from Pohakea Elementary School when I used to go over there. Some days, if the wind was onshore and really strong, up to the shopping center and beyond you could smell the limu, it was piled up so high.

LM: Wow. You know what kind it was?

MK: The majority of it was probably the ones that people would call it opala. But you know, now days, there’s no such thing as opala limu now. That’s like, in the old days, palani, and kala even, manini, that was considered “shit” fish. Now, to me, there’s no such thing.

LM: Yeah, you take what you can get now.

MK: Yeah, it’s an oxymoron now. So, opala limu is the same thing. But the drifts would be mostly limu kala, long, long strands of limu kala. Lipoa, jus long, long, long strands of lipoa, and most people didn’t come to harvest that. And people came from all over the island, especially on the weekend. Monday through Friday, not too bad, just the local, the people from Ewa Beach. But on the weekends, Saturday and Sunday, you would have, from all the way down there from the wall, all the way down to Parish Drive, which is the point further up there just beyond those coconut trees is where the Parish family lived. And there would be 2–3 feet all the way, and in the water here, would have limu floating at least, 20–30 feet out. Just thick, thick.

LM:  Wow. What happened to it?

MK: I have a friend that, he went Kamehameha grad ’74 like me, Alan Perry, he works for whatever city department is in charge of the waste treatment plants. So yeah, I talked to him, and I said, “Alan, you think you can…” and before I can even finish my sentence, he goes, “Mark, I know what you goin’ ask me…” And I said, “Okay, what am I gonna ask you?” He goes, “You want me to let the sewage outfall happen, so that the limu comes back to Ewa Beach.” And I said, “How did you know I was gonna ask you that?”

LM: Is that what it was?

MK:  When I was in Kamehameha, I grad ‘74, I was a boarder…

LM: Oh, really? Why were you a boarder? Oh, ’cause it was far?

MK: Any place from Waipahu out, Waianae, Waipahu. Pearl City, you had to be day-student.

LM: Yeah, my mom was day, too.

MK:  Ewa, Waianae, of course, North Shore…

LM:  You guys all boarded…?

MK: We all boarded with the outer islands guys.

LM: Ho, I wish it was still like that! I would have boarded!

MK: Let me tell you, hey, it was awesome. But I remember, when you looked from campus, you looked down, and off of Sand Island, about a mile out, you would see this big, brown V, out in the middle of the blue water. And that was raw sewage, and if I not mistaken, I may be wrong, but I think I remember 11 million gallons of raw sewage a day would go out into that outfall. And all you saw was this big, brown V, and then the current runs, and this is Mamala Bay [points out around us] all the way across, so the current would run from Honolulu, and run along where the airport stay, Pearl Harbor, and then come down to Ewa Beach.

LM:  Wait, what was this bay called?

MK: Mamala.

LM:  This is Mamala?

MK: This is Mamala Bay. From Barber’s Point to Diamond Head. So, to me, that’s why [the limu grew]… it was like fertilizer. That’s what it was.

LM:  Oh and the fishes love it then, and I bet the honu loved it too.

MK:  And to me, that’s why, I like talk to you, because to me, that’s what we have to preserve, if you don’t have the base of the food chain. And to me, it’s limu. And then once you get that, because not only the fish eat the limu, there’s other things like crabs, and shrimps, the opae, they live inside the limu for protection. Now, there’s other fish that may not eat the limu, they’re carnivorous, but they looking for the shrimp and the crab that look for protection. It’s like a forest. So, that’s why I wanted to talk to you about that, I think that we really need to take care of the limu because that’s the basis for Ewa Beach. And, as far as Pearl Harbor being Puuloa, it’s all one big system, including Puuloa. Like you said, that’s where all had the fishponds and all, yeah?

LM: Yeah, my grandma said she would go out and collect limu when she was young, too. It used to grow in the watercress patches, I guess, too.

MK: You know, if you get clean water, whether it be fresh water or salt water, plants will grow. But, that’s why, I would like whatever kind organization, whether it be the state, or whatever, is if you want the fish and everything that goes along with that, you gotta start with the actual papa itself, and make sure that the limu is protected. Another thing, is that, because Puuloa was protected, and because a lot of the drainage, I think every drainage, Pearl Harbor is the drainage for, except for Honouliuli.

LM:  Yeah, it’s all the way out that way.

MK: Yeah, so, all of that comes in, so you get this balance of salt-water/fresh-water, and it just depended on what part of Pearl Harbor you were actually in. And of course, salt-water’s heavier than fresh-water, so even in some parts you gonna have different kind fish, and to me that’s why they had so much fish ponds. Because the species that could handle being penned up like that, the awa, the awaaua, the silver fish, the aholehole, the mullet, the amaama, all of those, they’re brackish water fish. So, to me, a lot of the spawning that happened in Ewa has a lot to do with what’s happening in Pearl Harbor, Puuloa itself. I noticed when I used to go fishing, loaded baby sharks. For me, that’s one example. Loaded baby sharks in the mouth of Pearl Harbor, right outside of Iroquois Point, loaded. Lot of hammerheads, but lot of small sharks, 2, maybe 3 feet. Now, when you come out Ewa Beach Proper, and you start from Iroquois, the Rifle Range, Ewa Beach Park, just go close right here, you would see bigger and bigger and bigger sharks. So, this is my theory, is that they’ll start off at like, Puuloa is like a nursery for a lot of species, and as they got bigger, they would come out, and now you get all of this limu-grinds, that herbivore fish would definitely need. Other fish that were carnivorous, they would find the other smaller animals that lived among the limu. And as you went further and further this way [westerly], you’d almost see a growth within a species. So, that by the time you got down to Barber’s Point, ho, they’re big. You going see the biggest sharks, you going see the biggest enenue, you going see all the big, large adults, the mature adults, over there [Barber’s Point]. And I’m sure that they go back, looking for places that they wanna spawn and lay their eggs, or have their young. So, to me, this shallowness and the outside reefs out there, it’s not like Big Island where, it’s like, right from the shore, boom, the water just deep.

LM: Yeah, this is an old island.

MK: Yeah! It’s an older island. The fish have got plenty, plenty places, the sand pockets, the reef, the rubble, there’s so many places that the animals can come in and lay their eggs and raise their young in a protected kind of area. Of course, you still gonna have, the further out you go, you gonna have the bigger, larger fish. But now, I spoiled, I dive Big Island a lot, and it’s just like, wow, look at this place, the clarity of the water and everything. And that’s another thing, because the clarity of the water is generally dirty, maybe that’s not a real good word, but it’s not clear because of the runoff and infect water from Pearl Harbor. Once it comes out of the mouth, the current catches it, and brings it along this coast, and it just goes right along this way. The only time that it changes, and that’s what I was looking for today, is when the winds blow from the north. When the winds blow from the north, it blows all the dirty, unclear water straight out to sea, and this area [Ewa Beach] becomes…

LM: All clear?

MK: Yeah! It looks like Hauula or Punaluu or something, which it never does.

LM:  How often does that happen? Hardly ever?

MK:  Very rarely.

LM:  Yeah.

MK:  You know when you feel the really really cold morning?

LM:  Yeah. We feel it Mililani, too.

MK: That’s the days to come! That’s when you wanna go diving over here. Because with the nets, you don’t need crystal clear water to lay a net. But for diving, you need it.

LM:  Yeah…

MK:  Yeah, your boyfriend you said he’s a big diver, ah.

LM:  Yeah.

MK: One thing that we have to play with, you could have nice water and everything, but if there was a lot of limu in the water, you didn’t lay a net, ’cause your net just would be full of limu. So, that’s what you waited for, you waited for the days when had little limu, and still yet, you still going get limu. So, you laid your net, like you could see, it’s kinda light colored about maybe 30, 40, 50 yards out, and then it goes all the way out to that darker area further out, that’s the first reef. It runs parallel, it runs almost from like, pretty much from Ewa Beach Road all the way out here, and you can see the little white caps out there. It starts off over here as really shallow, 2, 3 feet, and then where it gets to be that lighter color, it’s sand and rock. Almost looks like a parking lot, it’s flat, not much limu, and then once you get out to where that darker area is, it’ll come out maybe from 10 feet deep, it’ll come to maybe 5–6 feet deep on a low tide. And then, that reef is maybe only 50–100 yards wide, and then it drops off again into deep, deep sand. And that’s probably about 50 feet deep. On other days, like in summer time when there’s a south swell, you’ll see another set of breakers further out than these ones that you see here, that’s the second reef. And that one is probably about a half mile out, the first reef is about a quarter mile out. Then you get that deep sand that will come to maybe about, on a low tide, to maybe 12–25 feet deep, that second reef. But it’s, ho, the fish out there. They run in parallel bands, so the first reef runs about a quarter mile, and it runs all the way down, goes. And even like the shark country, where the surfers are, I used to surf too, that’s part of the first reef. And then the second reef, it goes, and then it kinda ends about, well it goes actually through Barber’s Point, and even through like where the jetty is, maybe like by where Barber’s Point is, it’ll actually start, it’s not so defined. ’Cause really, it’ll do this, it’ll be shallow, deep, shallow, deep, shallow, deep, and it goes on. I been out to the third reef, but that’s as far as I’ve gone. And I wouldn’t doubt that there’s reefs even further out. Especially like in past millennium, where the sea level fluctuates, there may be reefs that was in shallower water, long time ago, but the reef is still there.

LM:  So, how did you first get into spear fishing? It is spear fishing, right?

MK: I worked for United Airlines after I graduated high school, ’74, and in ’81 there was an air traffic controllers’ strike, and Ronald Reagan was president at the time, and he fired all the striking air traffic controllers. So what that did was, is that airlines couldn’t expand, in fact they had to cut their flights because there’s less ability to control um. You know, air traffic controllers, they gotta follow the airplane, tell um turn left, turn right, go to this altitude. Because of that, United had to lay off a lot of us, throughout the whole system. So, there’s a bunch of guys that I know, that I work with now, that we all got laid off in ’81. And, I didn’t get my job back until ’84. I didn’t wanna work a straight job. I load and unload airplanes at the airport, and it’s kind of a, it’s outdoors, and you’re not stuck in a cubicle. You’re not in an office, you’re not behind a computer screen. You’re outside, you’re doing stuff. It suited me. So, I didn’t wanna work a straight job, I’ll say it like that. So, after my unemployment ran out, I had heard all these stories about my dad, and how he was master fisherman. And our kuleana was the mouth of Pearl Harbor to Barber’s Point. And, later on when I tried diving other places, ho, my mother would scold me, “Boy, that’s somebody else’s fish. Why you need to go anyplace else, this is our kuleana.”

LM:  I like that manao.

MK: Yeah, don’t hana ino other peoples’, you know, their area, that’s for them. So, I told myself, “Okay, I am gonna learn from the mouth of Pearl Harbor, all the way to Barber’s Point.” And, I did it for 3 ½ years, almost 4 years. And, I had heard stories when I was young that my father died when I was a year and 9 months, not two years old, of stomach cancer. But when I was born, my father had wanted to show me all these spots, and some secret spots. And, after he died, I felt like, wow, I kinda, I lose a big part of my heritage, my legacy. That was supposed to be mine. So, when I got laid off, I said, you know what, “It’s still here! It’s not like it ran away. It’s still here!” So, whenever the winds would turn cold, I’d be out here. You know, this is like punching in, this is where I work. And, just depending on what area was the cleanest, and what area maybe I never go for a while, and I would pick and choose different areas, but a lot of it was, not just looking for the fish, or well, I would look for fish and hee and lobster, and limu, too. And I would take my catch up to Waipahu, and I would sell it at the markets over there. Mostly it was Yama’s, at Westgate Shopping Center, they bought everything I brought.

LM: Wait, in Waipahu?

MK:  Yeah.

LM:  Yeah, I been there.

MK:  Oh, yeah?

LM: Yeah, the fish market. My boyfriend actually took me there.

MK: Oh, yeah? Is it still there?

LM:  Yeah.

MK: I’ll be darned. Like I said, Yama helped me out plenty, because he would buy, whatever I got was, kala, palani, whatever.

LM:  I’m not sure if it’s still called the same thing, but, there’s that fish market in Waipahu.

MK:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m kinda shocked to hear that it’s still there.

LM:  Yeah.

MK: So, that’s what I did, and what I’d try to do is make a mental map of how this place looked if the water was clean. And, lotta times, you know, say you get like maybe only one day the water clean, and then the wind will switch, and it’ll go back to being dirty. Hate to use that word, but not clear.

LM:  Yeah.

MK: And, so, those days, a lot of times, even though I’m trying to get fish, or whatever, I’m trying to remember everything, so that one day I could pass it on. And that’s what I’m trying to do now with my grandson, is to let him know where everything is.

LM: So you kinda had to like, go and discover it yourself from just the stories of hearing your dad?

MK:  Yeah.

LM:  That’s good.

MK: As Hawaiians, we hear all these stories about our alii from long time ago, and sometimes it’s almost like not real, or they’re just stories.

LM: We’re so far removed from it now days.

MK:  Yeah…

LM: But it wasn’t even that long ago.

MK:  No.

LM: Your dad! Your dad’s generation.

MK:  Yeah. So I said, you know…

LM: If they could do it, you could do it.

MK: That’s right. And that’s what I did. And what I would do is, I surfed a lot before, that’s why I had all my surfboards and stuff, so what I would do is I would get two guns, I carried a hinge and a three prong, and I would put that on the front of my board. I would have a floater and a lead and a rope, and I would also wear a leg rope on my leg, so that way, if I’m way outside there, and I run into something that I don’t wanna be in the water with, I just jump on my board, and it was protection.

LM:  That’s good.

MK: Yeah, and if I went out to the second reef, I’d put two leg ropes together so that I could reach the bottom in 20, 25 feet of water. And just depending on where I was gonna go, that’s how much, I knew I had to have that much rope. So, lotta times, people would come down and they would see my surfboard floating outside, they’d think that’s like one abandoned surfboard. ’Til they see me climb on top and paddle, oh, where’d that board go? I started in ’81, and then I got my job back in ’84, and I told myself, the ocean, Ewa would take care of me for almost four years, and that’s all I did. And, even though I didn’t make a lot of money, I fed my family with the fish that we got, and I barely had two nickels to rub together, but that was one of the riches times of my life.

LM:  Hum. Interesting?

MK: Hoo, I always look back to that so, so fondly.

LM: Like free…

MK: And you know what, I learned the value of a dollar. I know how hard I had to work to get a dollar. And everything was real, crystal clear. And like now days, it’s different now, I live differently. But, that four years really, really taught me a lot.

LM: So, where were you living? Maybe if you could just go back and say where you lived and everything? I know you were explaining on the way here.

MK: Next to the church, yeah, there’s actually some property over there.

LM:  Yeah…

MK: My mom and dad, after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, they were still squatting down by the Shaffers down by the ironwood trees. And, my dad is pure Hawaiian and my mother is ¾ Chinese and ¼ Hawaiian. Her father, my Goong-Goong, was Kong Chong, he was half-Hawaiian, but he didn’t look it. His father came from China in the 18…, my grandfather was born in 1880, he was born on Kekaha in Kauai. I don’t have any documentation on it, but I’m wondering if that’s where they first worked as far as plantation…

LM: Yeah, they had the sugar plantations. Yeah, my grandpa’s side is the Chong, too, and they were from Kauai, too! It was like, Ah-Chiong, though, and I guess like when they came here they just shortened it to Chong. But he was born in Koloa, Kauai.

MK:  Koloa, is the south side, yeah?

LM: Yeah, and his dad was from China, too. And the mom was pure Hawaiian.

Yeah, his father, so my great-grandfather.

MK: Okay, my great-grandfather was pure Chinese, born in China. That’s Chong Ayau, and then he ends up by the turn of the century on Molokai, and what they did was, he married a pure Hawaiian woman from Halawa. And, he opened up a poi shop in Kaunakakai. To this day, my family still makes Molokai poi over there, the Chong family on Molokai.

LM: Oh, wow! So, wait, what was his name again?

MK: Chong, Ayau, that’s my great-grandfather.

LM: And he was the full Chinese from China?

MK: Yep, he was the one who came from China.

LM: And he married…

MK: A pure Hawaiian.

LM: From Molokai…

MK:  And her name was Kanakaole. Her family name was Kanakaole.

LM:  Oh, interesting.

MK: Yeah, and so to me, I understand that that’s where originally the poi, the taro, the kalo was coming from, was from Halawa. And they used to bring it over on mules, mule train to Kaunakakai. He would make the poi there. He had a machine that did the grinding of the taro. So, even when I was young, on Easter vacation, or on Thanksgiving, lotta times we would go to Molokai and we would stay with my mom’s cousin. My great-grandfather had two sons, and one son’s son stayed on Molokai. That’s Fook-ana, we called him Fook-ana, Uncle Fook-ana. And, all the boys was all Fook for that generation. Fook-wah, Fook-sun. My generation is Kwock, so that’s where I get Kwock-Sun from.

LM: Ohh…

MK: So, we used to go there, and he would make poi every other day. But by the time, this is probably late ’60s, the taro came from Maui. So we would have to go with his flatbed truck and go to the Kaunakakai Wharf, and pick up big burlap bags of taro, take um back to the house. His poi factory was a shack that was divided in two, one was to actually puree, mash the cooked taro, and the other half was to cook the raw taro. So, what he had, it was a real, real old machinery. I cannot tell you how old this stuff was, even in the ’60s. You filled this big pan with water, this metal pan, and then get kiawe trees all around his property, so you got his kiawe, and you made this fire under this big, huge pan of water. And then you brought all the taro, bags and all, you unloaded the truck and you put it into this room. The room wasn’t very big, maybe about 10 by 10, but you filled it all the way up with taro. And then, we had boards that you closed up this room, and then there was 55 gallon drums of rags. And, you got rags, and you take it your fingers, and you fill all the cracks in between the boards because you no more door, you just have one open wall.

LM:  That’s how they steamed it?

MK: Yeah. So, to make easy to bring the taro in, there was no wall, so you just unload real easy, just stack, stack. And then, you got boards, and you fitted the boards, there was like one space in between a post, so you get your board, and you make like that, and you get your next one, next one, next one, all the way up.

LM:  Ohh, I see. So smart!

MK: But, get small cracks, and cannot have no cracks, it’s gotta be like a giant pressure cooker, steamer. So you got all these rags, and that was us as small kids, our job was to make sure we got um filled up all the cracks with rags. So, he did that the night before. The next morning, you would get up and, my cousins would be peeling the taro, so that’s what we did, we would help peel taro. And then, he would feed it into the hopper of another really, really old machine, and then that would grind up the taro, and on the other end, would come out poi. So, he would be on the other end, and he would have an old scale, you know the kind that hangs up from above, with a big round face like a clock. So, he had it wired as the poi would come out, and it was hot, he would scoop it up with his hand, and he would put it into the bag, put ’um on the scale, one pound. Perfect. He did it forever. So I remember, couple times, he goes, “Mark, you go make. Take your turn.” So I make. Hey, not only I cannot get it into the bag clean, stuck poi all over my hand, all over the end of the bag, it was awful. Oh, little bit too much, I gotta take out. Ah, little big too little, I gotta add. It was really goofy, I wasn’t good at that at all. And, he was a good fisherman on Molokai too. But going back to over here [Ewa], my dad, there was a story about when people just started living out here. It was mostly, it was all dirt roads. This area [Mamala Bay] was mostly beach cottages for weekends for people that lived in Honolulu, and there wasn’t that many people that actually lived out here, full time.

LM:  Yeah, very small community?

MK:  Yeah.

LM: But you guys were out here full time?

MK: Yeah. So, when they actually started squatting, the deal was, is that, you could squat, but when you guys go, there’s all these gates to get to the main road, the Waianae Road. So, when you would drive your vehicle up to a gate, then somebody would have to get out, and then open the gate, then you go forward, and you gotta go through and close the gate. I think there was something like 20 or 30 gates that you had to get through before you got to the Waianae Road, the one that goes like that. And, people started coming out here, I can only imagine, they had this place all to themselves for a while, but then, Filipinos, other immigrant groups, because they were leaving the plantation, too, like how the Chinese did. So now, because Ewa Plantation is right here, some Filipinos started moving to Ewa Beach and buying places, and they started fishing. So, my story was, that this is Barber’s Point. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Barber’s Point, they get one jetty that goes out.

LM:  Yeah, I been there.

MK: Okay, off of that jetty, about maybe quarter mile out, about first reef distance, there’s a reef that the waves come in from three sides. Comes in straight, and then comes from two sides, like this. And when the three waves come together on the shallow reef, I’ve dove there, I mean you don’t wanna be there. It’ll screw you up big time if you’re not careful. So, what the story was that my dad started off at by where the Shaffers is, the ironwood trees, and he was gonna lay his net on the outside reefs, probably first, maybe second reef, I’m not sure. But, he noticed that there was another boat that was following him, so when he would drive, he’d see this thing driving, so he’d stop his motor, and then they would stop their motor. So, he’d start his motor again, and he goes to the next reef, and ho, these guys, they stopped their motor. So, in other words, they’re trying to find out where his spots were. So, what he did was, is he just kept on going from reef to reef, and then, they would come, so they’re always like one reef behind. So, he got to this, some people call that reef “cross-waters.” But that’s Swabbyland, that’s the surf spot at Swabbyland.

LM: Ohh.

MK:  So, he got his boat, he went, went, went, went, went, and he knows that if he stops, they goin’ stop. So, he waited till they were right over that reef, and turned off his motor. So now they turned off their motor, now so they’re sitting ducks.

LM:  Oh, no.

MK: So he waited, and sure enough, one swell, the wave came in, it did that triple-up thing, capsized their boat, so he turned around, and he went go rescue them.

LM:  [laughing]

MK: A lot of the cowboys, my mother would say, ’cause they didn’t use dry boxes, ’cause they had so much fish, a lot of times they would just go dry fish, and then hang it on a clothesline like clothes between the ironwood trees. So the cowboys, my mother said, they on horseback, and they wouldn’t even get off their horse, because the line is like right by their [head]…

LM:  They would just grab the fish?

MK: Yeah, they just go. But, my mother said, you know what was real pretty, was that they would have a, inside their hat, they would have chili pepper, and they would stick, you know like a, you bust one small end of a chili pepper bush, and maybe the thing get like 4, 5, you know, some is red, some is green, some is half-half. So, they would stick it inside their hat almost like one lei or decoration, you know, for them. But…

LM: Aww, cool. They would use it to eat.

MK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, when it came for lunch time, they had it.

LM:  Aww, smart!

MK: And, my mother used to say that every once in a while, the small baby manini would come in, certain times of the year. And you know, I’ve looked for that, that occurrence, and, I cannot say I’ve ever really seen that. But she says, every year, certain times of the year, and they would be about as big as a postage stamp, and you know like when you get like a tide pool, the buggahs just full inside. ’Cause they would come in with the tide. And then when the tide went out, they would be all inside the tide pool all low tide.

LM:  Ohh… wow.

MK: So, my grandmother, Tutu-Lady, she would have an apron. She would use the apron to scoop up the baby manini, and almost like one net. And then she would put that in a bowl, and the big manini, too. And, even that’s how, my mom said, ’cause she was raised Chinese style, and to live with Hawaiians was real different from what she was used to. So, her mother-in-law, she kinda tripped out on her mother-in-law, my grandmother.

LM:  And she was the Chinese?

MK:  No, she was Hawaiian, too.

LM:  Your grandmother?

MK:  Yeah…

LM: What was her name?

MK:  You know, that’s a whole ’nother story. ’Cause, I actually have, I guess my family would say, we have two grandmothers.  They were sisters.  One was married to John Kaihikapuonalani Kahalekulu.

LM:  That was your grandfather…?

MK: That was my grandfather. His wife’s sister came and lived with them. She got hāpai.

LM:  From him?

MK: He said, that’s his. That man… my dad.

LM: Ohh, wow, scandalous!

MK:  I know.

LM: So like, but back then, everyone was like, hanai, so then you have two moms. So your dad had two moms. They would look at it as, ho you lucky you have two moms. Poolua they called it.

MK: I know, I know. So true, so true. Poolua. So, like my family, ho, they don’t like that Poolua theory. They don’t like that at all, because to them, it’s like, for one thing it is scandal. And second, how can you have two mothers. So, that’s old style thinking.

LM:  Yeah, it’s Hawaiian.

MK: Like Kamehameha had Keoua and Kahekili, they had Poolua. So, that’s something that’s gotta be sorted out, and as far as the family, some guys think one way, and some guys think another. And, there’s other people, like my sister, who has her own theory, that it wasn’t Kahalekulu, John Kahalekulu was the father. It was a Portuguese man. So, there’s the Portagee-man theory, too, in my family!

LM: Wow.

MK:  I know. And to me it’s just like, and you now, it’s very divisive, it’s very divisive.

LM:  Yeah, you never know…

MK:  Yeah.

LM:  You could put anything on your birth certificate too, yeah?

MK: And, in the old days, maybe that didn’t matter. But now days, say you get your kid in Kamehameha, they not going go with this Poolua or anonymous- Portagee-man theory.

LM:  [laughing]

MK: They want, who was your grandfather. So, that’s how that works. But my Tutu-Lady, [Emily Kailiponi] who raised my dad…

LM: So she was…

MK: She was John Kahalekulu’s married wife.

LM:  Ohh, okay.

MK: Yeah, not the sister. The sister, actually she lived with John Kahalekulu and her name was Philomena [Kailiponi]. You know they get one, like where that slide park is as you going towards Waianae. That used to be one quarry before. And my dad’s biological mother [Philomena], and her husband [Keku], the husband actually was the watchman for that quarry. So, he [my father] had his biological mother close, and his hanai mother with him. So, this [Tutu-Lady] was his hanai mother. So, she would go and catch all these small, little baby manini, and you know, maybe that’s bad now days ’cause you wiping out the babies, yeah? You should at least let ’um grow big, yeah? But in those days, that’s how they ate. So, she would use the limu kala, just the tips, because the whole limu kala is real hard and spikey. [Goes and grabs some limu kala from the shore.] So, some of this [limu kala], they would just use the soft, soft end. Because, as you can feel, the inside part is kinda hard, and you feel this part here, you don’t wanna eat that.

LM:  Yeah, this is soft though.

MK:  But, the very, very end, and she would just pick this off, and that’s what she would put on top of this bowl of those baby fish, and then use hot water…

LM: And pour it?

MK:  Yeah, and that would make one soup, and one broth.

LM:  That sounds good!

MK: I know! My mother used to say, “I used to think, coming from one Chinese family, I was so weird.” But you know, she look at me and she goes, “But it was ono.”

LM:  [laughing]

MK: “I learned to eat that from my mother-in-law, and to this day, I love that.” [Quoting his mother] So, that’s why I used to go look for that, for her, but I never found that. But what my grandmother would also do, was that she would go get manini, and she would broil the manini, and do the same thing. Put the broiled manini inside a bowl, and then put limu on top and kinda dress it up, and then use the hot water and then make a fast fish soup. So, I could do that, I could go get manini for my mom, and my mom would do that. So, when you think about it, I don’t really know very, very much about my family’s history as far as when they first came, and all I have is secondhand stories from before.

LM: Well, you grew up here, too, so you have memories of your childhood. So, how many siblings do you have?

MK:  I have my sister and a brother, there was just three of us.

LM: What are their names?

MK:  This is Yvonne [points to the house close to us].

LM:  And her married name is…?

MK: Moriguchi.

LM: Moriguchi.

MK: And then my brother [Raphael Kaleikoa Kwock Sing], he’s two years younger than my sister. So, I think she was born 1940, and I think he was born 1942. And then me, I’m 16 years after my brother, and I was born in ’56, so, no actually, he would be born 1940, my sister would have been born late 1930s, 1938, something like that. So, when I was young, my father had already passed away at ’58. What they did was after World War II, they were squatting down at Barber’s Point. My mother’s birthday is December 7th, she saw Pearl Harbor get bombed on her birthday. You could never celebrate her birthday, ever. Like she would say, “It was such a sad day.” But, because she was Chinese and my father was Hawaiian, they squatted, and my mother told him, “Old Man, we have to buy our own place.” And when you think about it, it’s kinda Hawaiian for him to think like this, but he goes, “Why buy something that’s free?” He was in favor of jus squatting. But my mother goes, “No, no, no, we gotta buy one place.” So after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, a lot of people that owned these properties, here, most of um was along this shore. They wanted to sell and get on the first boat to California, because they thought the Japanese was going to invade.

LM:  I see.

MK: You know, they just bombed Pearl Harbor, this [Mamala Bay] is so shallow, this would be perfect for the Japanese to invade. They [my parents] went and bought next to that church, the bought one lot, and it was three hundred dollars.

LM:  What did your parents do? Oh, the paniolo.

MK: My dad first came over as paniolo, but by the war time, he had gotten a job, him and his dad, his dad first, and then he followed. They were custodians at Ewa School.

LM: Right.

MK: So that was their straight job. And, after paniolo, you don’t wanna do that for very long, really hard on your body. So, he would fish and then work at the school. And then when my mom moved down here…

LM:  Three hundred dollars!

MK: I know, but that was big money that time!

LM: No, yeah, yeah.

MK: So, my mother came down, and eventually she got a job at Ewa School as a custodian. And, later on they moved to other schools, but they usually worked together, McKinley, Stevenson Intermediate down by Roosevelt, Roosevelt High School, too. But they were custodians. That’s why, to me, I’m a very big proponent of education because my mother was. She sent me to Kamehameha, sent my brother to St. Louis, sent my sister to Mid-Pacific. How many toilets she had to scrub to send us to those schools, you know? So, to me, it was like, “Wow!” That’s how much she valued education, she only went up to the 6th grade. And because she had 13 brothers and sisters, when she got to 6th grade, her mother pulled her out of school and said, “Nuff school, you help at home.” And, the boys went on to University of Hawaii, but her only to 6th grade.

LM: The girls are gonna get married anyway, and have babies…

MK: So it’s like, ho, lose money, ah? But, I don’t like that way of thinking, but that was them.

LM: That was that time.

MK: Yeah. So, when they bought that property next to the church, it was all kiawe, so they cleared it, they busted their ass, lived in a tent. But after they had cleared the land, one of the regular residents of Ewa, that was here before us, said, “Do you know a certain family?” And, I think now, that might have been Dowsett, but I don’t have no proof. But my mother said that she asked, “Why?” [And he/she answered:] “Because you just cleared their land.” They [my parents] said, “No, no, no, we bought.” They said, “You bought the piece next to it.” But it’s all kiawe.

LM:  Yeah, how you supposed to know?!

MK: How you supposed to know? So my mother and father were crushed, because they had busted their ass to clear, you know how Hau Bush looks.

LM:  Yeah, that’s tough.

MK: So my mother said, “You know what Old Man, you gotta go talk to this lady.” So they went up there, and she says it was one house up in Nuuanu Valley, and it was one old haole-looking lady, and they asked if she’d be willing to sell the one that they wen’ clear. And she said, “You know, I wanted to save that for my family, but nobody want it because it’s so far out in the boonies, out in the sticks, Ewa Beach.” But she goes, “You folks, you young, I’ll sell it to you folks because you guys, you guys are gonna make better use of this opportunity than my own family.” So, she sold it to them. So, they ended up with two pieces. So, while the other one, which was the original one that they bought, still had kiawe tree, they had this one cleared, and they lived in like one army tent my mom says, until my dad could clear the other side, the original one, and put up a house. He eventually put up three houses on those two lots, and at the time you could do that. So one was a three-bedroom house. He originally built one two-bedroom house I think, and then next to it he build one one-bedroom house for his mother.

LM:  Aww, okay.

MK: And then later on he went and built a three-bedroom house. When I grew up, my mother had those houses.  But they were built like a little after the war time, right around the ’40s. So that’s where we originally lived was next to that church. The church wasn’t there yet. That was actually my father’s brother’s house. And the church bought from my uncle, that was Uncle [Abraham] Apela, my dad’s brother, his half-brother. His hanai mother’s son, his half-brother. So, he sold it to the Baptist church, about the early ’60s, I only remember little while, about the time I was in second grade it was a church, but they used my uncle’s house as the church for many years.

LM: Oh, wow, interesting, huh.

MK: So, we lived there when my mother was just widowed, and she lived in that one bedroom house, and she rented out the two- and the three-bedroom, and that’s how she made money. Because other than that, after my father died, my mom said that for social security for my father dying, she got $64 a month, and that’s what she had to live for, she and I to live on.

LM:  Wow!

MK: You know, I tell you, I didn’t know we were poor, ’cause we had a lotta love and always had food on our table. So, I didn’t realize that until I went to Kamehameha, and then I saw what other kids had.

LM: When did you get in?

MK:  ’69, in 7th grade.

LM: Yeah, I got in 7th grade, too.

MK: Yeah! Yeah, otherwise I went Pohakea over here. So, when I was about 5, that house that’s right at the T right here [points], that belonged to my Uncle Peter Chong, and he lived in Kalihi with my Goong Goong and my Popo, kinda took care of them.

LM: Peter Chong. Then who was the Goong Goong?

MK: That was Kong Chong, or Chong, Kong, with the last name first, ah.

LM: My grandpa, the Chongs, they grew up in Kalihi, too. On Pohaku Street.

MK: They were right off of King Street, like where Queen’s Market. There’s a supermarket over there, right off the Kalihi Shopping Center, there’s Kalihi Stream. In fact, before they moved over there, they actually lived on the stream next door to Hiram Fong the senator, Hiram Fong’s family. So my family and their family, not now, but they were close long time ago. Yeah, when everybody was broke! [laughing]

LM:  Yeah, anyways! [laughing] So, Peter Chong…

MK: Yeah, we moved when I was about 5, so early ’60s, we moved to over here, this is Oneula Place. And then, we lived there. And that’s why this beach is very, very near and dear to my heart, ’cause as long as I can remember…

LM:  Mamala Bay.

MK: Yeah, Mamala Bay. And then, around the corner, and we can go take a look at that after we leave. As you come out of this Oneula Place, to the right about 3 houses is my aunt, another sister of my mother. When my mother them came down here, all our family was Kalihi, and she was the first to marry Hawaiian. So, she was ostracized by my Popo.

LM: Ohh.

MK: Yeah, that was bad! Marry Hawaiian. But, once her sisters, and she had eleven sisters, ten sisters. Once she married Hawaiian, oh, it was like, “Oh, now it’s okay for us to marry Hawaiian!” So, they married Hawaiian, and now they started, it was always every weekend, after pau work, they would all drive from town, and they would all come down, and they would all hang out in Ewa. And then, Sunday night, they would all pack up, they all go back to town, they all gotta go work. So, eventually, as places started opening up, they started buying places over here, too. So it was nice.

LM:  Ohh, it’s like a Kahalekulu and a Chong… that’s so funny.

MK: Yeah! But it was this strip right here, kinda like from that point to that point. This was our playground, our living room…

LM:  And your sister lives right on the beach?

MK: Yeah.  What happened was is that, about middle ’80s, after I got back with United, it used to be, these four houses that was right next to the right-a-way [right-of-way] was one lot and it belonged to a family called the Youngs. And, it was their beach house. And they would come on the weekends. And then, there were two twin boys, and I think they went to like Iolani or Punahou. And they got into a business deal, and they asked the parents if they could use that lot as collateral for that business. They business collapsed, the bank took that property.

LM:  Ohh, wow.

MK: My sister was living in Waipahu at the time. And when she heard, that this lot, what they were gonna do is cut it in half. So it was one big lot, [drawing in the sand] so now, they went cut it in half, here’s the right-a-way [right-of-way], and so it’s two house lots, two house lots [in four pieces]. So, all the bank wanted is their money. They made an auction, and I think my sister bought that thing for maybe a little over a quarter-mil, two-fifty, something like that for two lots, right on the beach.

LM: Wow, she bought two of them?

MK: Yeah, she bought one half of this, but her half is two lots. So, she eventually put up a big two-story house on the front, on the beach side. And then she has a two- or three-bedroom rental on the street side.

LM: Wow, and she still lives there?

MK:  She still lives there. She’s retired from the post office, her and her husband.

LM: Good.

MK: So, after we lived here, around the corner you come out of Oneula onto Pohakupuna Road, I have another aunty that’s over there. Her children still live there, in fact, my uncle that my aunt married, he’s a Richardson from Lanai. The Richardsons and the Kaopuikis, who raised Kepa, are related by marriage.

LM:  Ohh, I know some Kaopuikis from Lanai.

MK:  Ohh, on Lanai?

LM:  Yeah, from Lanai, yeah.

MK: Oh, okay, okay. And you remember, I don’t know if he was there when you were there, but there was a bus driver, his name was Jerry. Jerry Kaopuiki at Kamehameha School.

LM:  Oh, I don’t know…

MK: He might be after you. I mean, you might be after him.

LM:  Yeah, maybe, I don’t know, probably.

MK: But, as me, going to school in the ’70s, I knew he was family by marriage, twice removed. [laughing]

LM:  [laughing]

MK: That’s why, when Kepa told me he was raised by the Kaopuiki I said, “You’re kidding!” So I started rapping off some names, and he goes, “Now, how are you related to those guys?” And I said, “You know, Kepa, you get relatives you know, you get ohana over here right on Pohakupuna Road.”

LM: Ohh.

MK: My aunty lived over there. Next to her, in the middle ’60s, you know ’64, ’65, had a Filipino guy and he wanted to sell his house. My cousin was gonna buy that house, and she used to work at Woolworth’s when used to have a Woolworth’s over here.

LM:  I remember… well my mom told me about that.

MK:  The Woolworth’s?

LM:  That it was like the only store…

MK: Yeah, yeah! My cousin worked at, what they call that when they have one, ah, you get soda…

LM: Ohh, a fountain?

MK: Yes, yes! A fountain! So, she was gonna buy that house next to her mother, but my mom asked if she could buy it. And, at first it was like, you know, you get $64 a month for social security, how you going buy this? Even though it was only $13,000 at the time.

LM:  Oh, wow.

MK: That’s what they sold it for. So, my mom, using the property that she got as collateral, she was able to buy that other house. That’s the house that I grew up in.

LM: Wait, which one was that again?

MK: This was the one on Pohakupuna Road, you haven’t seen it yet. And now, it’s just an empty lot. My mom bull-dozed down that thing in like the middle ’90s because it was just too old.

LM:  And now you still have that property?

MK: I still own that. And, in fact, after I talk to you, I gotta talk to a realtor, I gotta go talk to a realtor.

LM: Don’t sell it!

MK:  That’s what I’m thinking of doing.

LM: Aww, no! We always just say, don’t ever sell, don’t ever sell! ’Cause, all the Hawaiians are just getting pushed out…

MK:  I know, I know. You know, my father was from the Big Island, and even though I get my daughter, son-in-law, I get two grandsons over here, I get family over here, I enjoy the Big Island. I enjoy going to the Big Island.

LM:  But there’s so much land there!

MK:  I know, I know.

LM:  And it’s getting bigger! [laughing]

MK: You never meet my daughter. My daughter is, oh boy. She grad UH with a degree in economics.

LM: Ohh, wow. That’s the one married to, Eric?

MK: Yes, to Eric.

LM: What was his last name?

MK: Rhode.

LM:  Oh.

MK: So, my daughter is trying, ’cause right now, it’s an empty lot, and as far as I’ve been explained, to get the financing, to put up a house, I would have to rent it out. I wouldn’t see any return for many years, I would just be paying it basically for up to ten years before I see any return on it.

LM: That’s not that long! [laughing] Nah, it’s your money, it’s your house, it’s your land, I don’t know.

MK: But I still have that other house that’s next to the church.

LM: Oh I see, and you rent it out?

MK:  Yeah, I rent it out.

LM:  Oh.

MK:  So, it’s not like I would be devoid of anything.

LM:  Too bad you couldn’t like hang on to it and save it for grandkids…

MK: You know, after I started talking to Kepa, and that’s what it’s gonna go down to. My daughter’s gonna get it. All of this, whatever I have, even if I sell this lot here, and get something on the Big Island.

LM:  So you just have one daughter?

MK: Yep. So, it’ll all devolve onto her eventually. But she was saying, “You know Dad, you go to the Big Island anyway, and you prefer over there.” And I do. Even though I get grandkids, very rarely you see me on Oahu. I’m always on the Big Island if I can.

LM:  Oh. What side, you like Kona side?

MK: I like Kona side. But, right now, I’m kinda looking at Honokaa.

LM:  Oh yeah, it’s really nice there.

MK:  Yeah.

LM: In the middle kinda.

MK: What do you mean?

LM: Or like, kinda in between Hilo and Kona.

MK: Yeah, yeah. But it’s kinda at the end of the road. When I got off the plane yesterday and I was driving in that traffic, I said, to me, that’s not my idea of… I don’t know, I just enjoy the Big Island ’cause get plenty fish, the water is clean, country. There’s certain parts that have no traffic.

LM:  So you might retire there?

MK: Yeah. I remember one time I went over there during the winter time, and the waves came really big. And, the main spot of Kona is Lymans, it’s a left, I’m a goofy footer.

LM:  Me too!

MK: Oh! So, I was taking pictures, and the whole week had waves. And it was like, 3–4, 4–5, and all of a sudden, they said, “Oh, gonna have a real big swell.” The thing came up to like 8–10 feet with bigger sets. And I looked out, and it was perfect, and there was a half a dozen guys out there. I looked at my wife, and I said, “You know what, I haven’t surfed in long time, but I’m ready to go buy one, if I cannot rent one board, I’ll buy one.” So, I see this guy, and he was walking away. I said, “Bruddah, you know some place I can go rent one board?” He goes, “You see that condo over there, get one surf shop over there, Kona Bali Kai, they rent you boards over there.” I said, “Really?” He go, “Yeah.” Within a half an hour, I’m back with a board under my arm, and I’m all excited, it’s pumpin’, it’s smokin’. And I’m walking up the point, and local guys are looking at me and goin, “Alright, bruddah, go get um, go get um!” ’Cause they’re looking at me, and it’s like, outta six waves, one is ridden. Five empty waves to one. And I was like, I chipped my teeth out at North Shore, surfing the North Shore, and it was dog-eat-dog. Banging’ rails, and it wasn’t like, “Oh, yeah, go bruddah!” No, no, guys will drop in on you, I mean mercilessly.

LM:  Yeah, there’s a lot of people.

MK: So, when guys treated me like that, I was like, “That’s aloha, that.” And, I’m sorry, but, I respond to that. And, even like now, I’ll go over there, and I’ll go look for one hee, I’ll let the small ones go. Just if I was over here. If I something with eggs I’ll let it go, don’t touch it. If it’s kapu, don’t shoot it. Make sure it’s legal size. Even though I’m not a resident of over here, I feel like this is my heritage as a Hawaiian. So, when I go to the Big Island, and over here [Ewa], I’ll gather limu, I’ll go and go catch hee, and I’ll take that back with me to Colorado, and I’ll share it with other Hawaiians that are over there. To me, that’s the ability that I have, is to keep, not only for myself, but for other people, this connection. So, to me, it’s not just Ewa Beach specifically, but it is, but more generally, it’s the whole state. I like see the whole state be held in stewardship for our people. Wherever it is. And, I may come back the last time in a box, but my heart is always over here. But I can understand, like you’re saying, and I tell you, I still get second thoughts about selling. That’s why, even like right now, I thinking about that realtor that I’m gonna talk to, friend of my daughter’s, and I’m not sure what I’m gonna tell her, especially after talking to you.

LM: I mean, I don’t know the whole story, but that’s my first response when I hear somebody’s gonna sell their land, especially like family land that you grew up on. I’m just like, “Don’t do it!” You’ll just regret it.

MK: You know, I read George Kanahele’s Ku Kanaka, and one part he says, “If you have ancestral land, don’t sell it.” And, what it is, it’s a place where your family can come and learn the stories of your family, and to be introduced to the history of your family, and a place like this, I mean, this is where we would get the net, lay, go make it, we had two pockets, everybody come in, all the kids, splash, splash, splash, splash, splash, pick up the net with the tube, put the fish in the burlap bag, pick up the net, everybody out, all the kids come back in, the men folks go all the way, start over here by this little cove inside here on the other side of the pipe. And then, go all the way down by Parish Drive, and by the time we got to Parish Drive, we had so much fish. We had more than enough fish for many families, like Uncle Peter, and Aunty Alice, and Uncle Lou, and my brother and my sister. You know, we had all of this as a resource. Whenever we went to Kalihi, we brought gallons of pickled limu with us, you know when we went into town. And for us it was no big deal, but wow, you know when you watch the family, our town family.

LM:  They loved it.

MK:  Aww, it’s like it was gold to them.

LM:  Ahh really? I want some of that now!

MK:  [laughing] I know.

LM:  I want the fish, the manini, that sounds good.

MK:  With the little buds of the limu kala…

LM:  Yeah! I wanna try that now!

MK: But, no matter what, this place will always be home to me, it will always be one hanau. So, it’ll always be this. And even if in the future, I always think that my family, my descendants could be all blond hair and blue eyes one day.

LM:  Not…

MK: Pretty soon we’re all gonna look the same.

MK:  Yeah.

LM: We’ll all be one race again. [laughing]

MK: Yeah. I just want them to be able, I really want them to know that they’re Hawaiian, that they have Hawaiian, and they should be proud of it. And, even more so, they should try to learn their culture, learn their history, learn their language. For me, I’m terrible with the language. I’m a book worm, I get books all over my house. I can digest books on history, all that, but to learn the Hawaiian language, I have not found the key that unlocks that, and I don’t understand how.

LM: Immersion. Yeah, it’s hard. Language, you gotta live it, to really know.

MK: That’s why, to me, I don’t know if I ever will, but I not going give up. And I have friends up there [Colorado] and we tried to.

LM: When did you move to Colorado?

MK: ’91. So, I just want my children and my grandchildren and descendants, I want them to be proud of who they are and what they are. And as long as we get at least one place over here [Ewa], we still got our foot in the door as far as being able to have access to this place which has fed my family for almost 100 years. So, at the very least, I still get that, but if I could figure out something as far as this property, I’ll show you after.

LM: Okay.

MK: If I could figure out something, I’d love to be able to figure out something that I could say, you know what, this is the cornerstone of a legacy that I could pass down to my descendants and my family. If I could do that, that would be… I could kick out happy.