Oral History Interviews

Recording oral history interviews is an important part of the historical review process. The experiences conveyed through interviews are personal; also, the narratives are rich and more animated than those that may be typically found in reports that are purely academic or archival in nature—the personal narratives tend to present modern audiences with descriptions of cultural values, practices, and transitions in the landscape. Thus, through the process of conducting oral history interviews, things are learned that are often overlooked in other forms of documentation. Interviews also help demonstrate how certain knowledge is handed down through time, from generation to generation. Of course, with the passing of time, knowledge and personal recollections undergo changes. Sometimes, that which was once important is forgotten, assigned a lesser value, or lost because of alterations to the landscape, economic pressures, and loss of access. Today, when individuals—particularly those from outside the culture which originally assigned the cultural values to places, practices, and customs—evaluate things such as cultural properties, resources, practices, and history, their importance is often diminished. Thus, oral historical narratives provide both present and future generations with an opportunity to understand the relationship shared between people and their natural-cultural environment.

Through oral history interviews, it is also evident that with the passing of kūpuna and elder kama‘āina generations, facets of history and knowledge of place are sometimes lost. Readers are asked to keep in mind that while this component of the study records various facets of cultural and historical knowledge of land and resources in Honouliuli Ahupua‘a, the documentation is incomplete. In the process of conducting oral history interviews, it is impossible to record all the knowledge or information that the interviewees possess. Thus, the oral history narratives provide readers with glimpses into the stories being told and of the lives of the interview participants as related to the landscape in which they live, work, and play.

As would be expected, participants in oral history interviews sometimes have different recollections of history, or for the same location or events of a particular period. There are a number of reasons that differences are recorded in oral history interviews, among them are that:

•  Recollections result from varying values assigned to an area or occurrences during an interviewee’s formative years.
•  They reflect localized or familial interpretations of the particular history being conveyed.
•  With the passing of many years, sometimes that which was heard from elders during one’s childhood 60 or more years ago, may transform into that which the interviewee recalls having actually experienced.
•  In some cases it can be the result of the introduction of information into traditions that is of more recent historical origin.
•  Some aspects of an interviewee’s recollections may also be shaped by a broader world view. In the face of continual change to one’s cultural and natural landscapes, there can evolve a sense of urgency in caring for what has been, and history might be embellished.

When based in traditional knowledge, diversity in the histories shared should be seen as something that will enhance interpretation, preservation, and long-term management programs for the lands of Honouliuli. Noticeable differences in histories being recorded may help direct new paths of research and questions which may be answered through further research, or in some cases, pose questions which may never be answered.

In the broader context of the narratives shared through the oral history interviews, it will be seen that there are consistent themes. These themes include, but are not limited to:

•  Care for the land, water, and ocean resources;
•  Honor the natural/cultural history of the ‘āina and kūpuna.
•  Respect ilina and cultural sites.
•  Promote maintenance and integration of cultural/natural resources and practices into project design.
•  Integrate the history of place and people into programs that pass that information on to present and future generations through educational/interpretive activities.

Two of the oral history interviews were conducted by Leimomi Morgan, descendant of an ‘ohana with generational ties to Honouliuli Ahupua‘a. The interviewees were provided with the following introduction to the study undertaking, and overview of the types of questions that would be asked:

Honouliuli – Hoakalei Oral History/Consultation Study

Aloha – Thank you for agreeing to participate in the Honouliuli Oral History Consultation Study being conducted as part of the Haseko (Ewa), Inc. — Hoakalei Master Plan Update Environ-mental Impact Statement (please see project overview on pages 2–3). While conducting the interview, we hope to record information from people who know the mo‘olelo (history) of the land and natural/cultural resources. The information gained from these interviews will be used to identify resources in or near the project area and help in determining how they may be affected by the project.

With your permission, the interview will be recorded. The recording will be transcribed and a draft transcript, along with the recording will be returned to you for review, corrections and/or additions. If the interview is not recorded, but notes taken, those notes will be developed in an effort to capture key points shared, and returned to you for your approval. When you are satisfied with the transcript (recorded or expanded notes), we would like your permission to incorporate the transcript into the documentary study for the Honouliuli project area. When the study is completed a full copy of the report, including historical background and oral history/consultation interviews will be given to you for your family record.

To begin the interview we would like to establish a background section on your personal history and experiences – how you came to possess the knowledge you share.

•  Interviewees Name:
•  Interview Date:
•  Location:
•  When were you born?
•  Where were you born?
•  Are you affiliated with a Native Organization or family group? (name):
•  Parents?
•  Grew up where? Also lived at?
•  Where did you live? Share with us recollections of elder family members and extended family that influenced your life and provided you with knowledge of place and practice?
•  Family background—grandparents, hānai etc.; generations of family residency in area… (time period)?
•  Kinds of information learned/activities and practices participated in and how learned…?
•  Sites and locations (e.g., heiau, pā ‘ilina, kahua hale, mā la ‘ai, ala hele, and ko‘a etc.); how learned, and thoughts on care and preservation…
•  Do you have knowledge of wahi pana — places of religious and cultural significance in or near the project area?
•  Where are these places located in relation to the proposed project (see maps)? How did you learn about these places?
•  Are these places important to the you, your ‘ohana, the larger community (or all three)?
•  What makes these places important in terms of traditional practices or beliefs?
•  How would you define their boundaries?
•  Will these places or their use be affected by the project? If so, how might they be affected, and what steps might be taken to minimize impacts on the sites?
•  Have these places been affected by modern development, and is it relevant to what makes them important?


•  Did you/your family cultivate the land? Describe methods of planting and types of plants? Use of particular plants and other natural resources; customs observed when collecting or caring for such resources; and how/when accessed?
•  Discussion of water flow and weather patterns.
•  Types of fishing practices:  localities of fishing grounds or limu collection areas; and changes in fisheries?
•  Historic land use practices, fishing activities?
•  Thoughts on the care of cultural and natural resources…?
•  May information about these places be shared, or should it be protected from public release?

Project Overview

Haseko is seeking a zone change for a portion of its Hoakalei Project to accommodate an update to its project master plan. The existing zoning for this area was last modified on July 20, 2007 in anticipation of the existing basin being completed as a small boat marina. The lack of sustainable market demand in the foreseeable future for the boat slips and other marina facilities, together with ongoing and possible future legal challenges to governmental approvals for the marina entrance channel, make it impractical for Haseko to pursue development of a small boat marina for the foreseeable future. Accordingly, it is now requesting rezoning of the land surrounding the existing basin consistent with its use as a recreational lagoon that would have no direct connection to the ocean.

The updated master plan would not increase the total number of planned dwelling units or visitor accommodation units specified in Haseko’s Unilateral Agreement with the City. It is possible that there will be some adjustments to the proposed zoning boundaries that may affect the sizes and locations of individual zoning districts as a result of consultations with the City Department of Planning and Permitting (DPP). Anticipated permits that require environmental assessment compliant with HRS Chapter 343 include the zone change, and potentially a Special Management Area Use Permit and a Shoreline Setback Variance. Haseko will also seek a modification of the Special Management Area boundary in the area around the recreational lagoon, since it will not be connected directly to the ocean, as the boat marina would have been.

If these approvals are granted, Haseko will continue development of the same kinds of resort, residential, and commercial retail/office/restaurant uses that had previously been approved for the area. In addition, lighter industrial mixed uses will replace the more intensive waterfront industrial uses previously planned in connection with a marina development. By providing for these uses, the updated master plan for the area covered by this request will continue to create employment and business opportunities as envisioned when the zoning was originally granted. In addition, the plan includes a public swimming cove that would provide a protected swimming area; it also includes facilities that would collect and treat storm water runoff, minimizing the amount that flows into the proposed lagoon. The revised plan also includes pedestrian pathways and other amenities that were not included in the previous plan.

Haseko will continue to have primary responsibility for constructing the proposed facilities, including possible residential and/or resort units; commercial and lighter industrial-mixed use structures; infrastructure; public facilities and amenities such as the swimming cove, activity center, comfort station, parking lot, cultural center; and for further enhancing the existing Wetland Preservation Area.

Mahalo nui.

Leimomi Morgan
(808) 295.1911
Email: oleimomimo@gmail.com

Four additional interviews were previously recorded by Kepā and Onaona Maly. Three of the interviews were conducted with Kupuna Arline Wainaha Pu‘ulei Brede-Eaton and Sister Thelma Genevieve Parish, elder kama‘āina of the Pu‘uloa-Honouliuli, as a part of the process of developing the initial Hoakalei preservation plan in the 1990s. Aunty Arline and Sister Parish are two of the eldest, lifelong members of the Honouliuli-Pu‘uloa area. These kūpuna were sought out to elicit historical narratives, records of Hawaiian sites and practices, and recommendations regarding the Haseko development project. Kupuna Arline and Sister Parish were recommended as the most knowledgeable residents of the region. A fourth interview was conducted with members of the Shibuya-Dayanan family. All interviews provide information of time depth and attachment to place, and document personal experiences on the land and in the ocean. Through the generosity of the interviewees, were are also informed of changes in the environment during their lifetimes. 

We are deeply indebted to the interviewees and their ‘ohana for their willingness to participate and share in the history of the land.

Mahalo nui no ka lokomaika‘i kau palena ‘ole: Mark ‘Ehukai Kahalekulu, Harry Alama, Jose Dayanan, Roxanne Marie Tagama, Barbara Shibuya, Mona Shibuya, Janice Trinidad, Arline Wainaha Ku‘uleialoha Nā kīhei Brede Eaton, and Thelma Genevieve Parish.

Related Documents

Below are two interviews conducted by Kepa and Onaona Maly with Aunty Arline Wainaha Puulei Brede-Eaton. Aunty Arline grew up in Puuloa and has been an incomparable resource. The first interview was done in 1997 and the second was in 2011.

The following information is a paraphrased summary of historical recollections collected during an informal interview conducted by Kepa Maly on March 4, 1997 with Arline Wainaha Puulei Brede-Eaton, a.k.a. Aunty Arline and Kupuna Eaton. Aunty Arline gave her permission for release of the interview records during the meeting and interview with Sister Thelma G. Parish on May 2, 1997. The information was collected as a part of the effort to develop a site preservation plan in conjunction with proposed development on a parcel of property on the Ewa Plain, in the land of Honouliuli. The property is generally situated on the coastal flats, between Oneula and Kualakai, and while the area has been impacted by cattle ranching and WWII military operations, a number of native Hawaiian cultural sites still remain on the property.

Born in 1927, Aunty Arline has lived in Puuloa nearly all of her life. Aunty’s hanai parents had been going to the Puuloa vicinity for years—Papa Brede oversaw ranch operations for the Dowsetts—and by the time Aunty was born, had bought land and built a home at Puuloa. Initially the family spent weekends and holidays at Puuloa, living in Kalihi on weekdays. Aunty observed that many of her earliest memories are of her days at Puuloa, and today she is one of the oldest longtime native Hawaiian residents remaining on the land.

In those early days, Aunty recalls that they were among the few families living in the area. Besides her family, Dowsett Ranch had about 12 cowboys, all Hawaiians, and their families. Few other people lived in the area. When asked about her recollections of life and activities in those early years, Aunty Arline shared the following memories:

Interviewee   Arline Wainaha Puulei Brede-Eaton (AE)
Interviewer  Kepa Maly (KM)
Date  March 4, 1997

The whole region was our playground, we’d go to Keahi, go by canoe to Laulaunui and fish, and in the other direction, we’d walk as far as Kalaeloa. As children, we’d never think twice about walking anywhere, the distance was nothing. We would walk from Puuloa to the shore at (Ke) Oneula, and then on to Kualakai, and along the way we would gather limu (sea-weed). There was limu kohu, lipoa, and eleele, and the fish were so plentiful, not like now. We’d catch oio, kala, weke, moana, uu, and all kinds of fish. It was a good place. Back when I was a child, there was more sand also, the entire shoreline was like the beach at Barber’s Point. Today, the shoreline has all of that craggy coral, before had sand between the coral and the water. Things have changed now, I don’t know why.

While no one was living full time out between Keoneula and Kualakai, there were families that would come out for several months at a time. Sort of like my dad them, they’d work in town or somewhere else, and set up temporary residence on the beach. They didn’t own the land, but they would go out and stay for certain periods of time. The people would fish, gather limu, and make paakai (salt). Other than that though, there was no one living out here. There was not much activity in the area behind the shore. I don’t remember that there were cattle back there, and the sugar ended further inland. The CPC had a camp down by Keoneula, and in from there, there was an old piggery and the old chicken farm. The chicken farm was run from around the early 1930s to 1970.

In response to several questions, Aunty offered the following recollections and comments.

KM: When you’d go out into the area of the proposed Haseko development, did you ever hear your parents or any of the old cowboys speak about Hawaiian sites or any stories in the area?

AE: I don’t remember hearing too much about any of the history in the area, but I do remember being told that there were some heiau in the area. I think that site (Site 3209) in the Haseko property, the one that will be included in the preservation plan, the coral stone platform is one of the heiau sites. I remember being told that the heiau in this area were good heiau, the kind used for fishing, rain, and agriculture.

KM:  Where did people get water from when they were out there?

AE: There’s water out there, its wai kai, but we were used to that water, not like today. You can tell that there’s water there along the shore, you can see it bubbling up, and the limu eleele will only grow where there is fresh water coming out of the papa (reef flats). And you know, when I was young, there was a lot more water in the ponds back there. People don’t believe me, but I remember when I was a child, there was a lot of water there.

KM: Do you remember the wetlands?

AE: Yes. That’s the place where Captain Kealakai’s moopuna and I would go play. The water went far across the flats there. If I’m not mistaking, I think it went all the way behind the Barber’s Point beach area. The place was clean too, not like now. There were no kukus (thorns), and used to have plenty manu. We’d go swim in the ponds back there, it was pretty deep, about two feet, and the birds were all around. There were koloa (native ducks) and aeo (native stilts), and people don’t believe this, but there were also iwa. I remember that when they were nesting, I would see their red chests puff out. It seems like when there were storms out on the ocean, we’d see them come into the shore, but they’re not around anymore. The wet land would get bigger when there was a lot of rain, and we had so much fun in there, but now the water has nearly all dried up. They even used to grow wet-land taro in the field behind the elementary school area when I was young.

KM: Do you remember if people made salt out in the project area, maybe by the ponds, or along the shore? Or was it pretty much out at Puuloa?

AE: Well, the big salt making area had been at Puuloa, and some salt was still being made in the ponds there. I do remember that when we’d go fishing, we, and other families would gather salt from the Keoneula area. The paakai was made in the natural kaheka (salt bowls) along the shore there.

KM: Are there any other kupuna, or other old-timers that you could recommend for me to try and speak with about this land?

AE: I am one of the few older people still around. But as I mentioned to you before, Sister Parish (Ms. Thelma Parish) is a good friend of mine. She’s a descendant of the Dowsett family, and is very knowledgeable about the area. I tried to call her last week to see if she could join us in the meeting today, but she’s been away. The Mitsuyasu family are old time residents, they had the first store out here, and someone of them may have some information that could be useful. Also, Ted Farm is very knowledgeable about the marine and fishing resources. I’ll try to find out if there is anyone else that might be around, and I’ll also keep trying to contact Sister Parish.

KM: Would you be interested contributing some of your manao and recommendations to the development of the preservation plan to protect and interpret the cultural sites in the Haseko property?

AE: I am very interested in participating in the preservation plan. I feel that I need to because this is my home, and it is important to care for our cultural resources.

Kupuna Arline Eaton was born in Honolulu in 1927. Shortly after birth, she was taken by her kupuna, Kaniela and Malia Kealoha, to be raised in the Keahi vicinity of Puuloa, near the entrance of Ke Awalau o Puuloa (Pearl Harbor). Her kupuna had lived in the Puuloa-Honouliuli area for years, and from them, she learned about the land, storied places, practices and the importance of respecting the akua and aina.

Kupuna Eaton is also tied to the Lanai families who helped raise Kepa Maly, and they have known one another for many years. She has participated in a number of oral history interviews with Maly, participated in the 1997 interview conducted by Maly with Sister Thelma Parish. Both kupuna were known to one another since childhood, though Sister Parish was the older of the two. Together, their stories confirm and share rich facets of history for the Ewa District.

This interview with Kupuna Eaton was conducted as part of a larger Traditional Cultural Properties Study for the larger Ewa District, but brings important traditional knowledge of Honouliuli, and shares native values for keeping history alive. Kuuwainani Eaton, moopuna of Kupuna Eaton, kindly assisted with the review and release of the oral history transcript. The interview was kindly released for public access on October 21, 2011.

The following is a summary of several topics that were discussed with Kupuna Eaton:

•  Families lived through the practice of kuapo—fish, limu, and salt from the sea; taro and other vegetable crops from the land. Fishers and farmers exchange the products of their labor as sustained by the natural resources around them.
•  Kupuna were careful when discussing certain traditions and beliefs.  They were particularly cautious about disclosing the locations of resource gathering/collection sites for fear that others might hana ino the resources.
•  It was the practice of the kupuna to take only what was needed, and leave the rest for another time. When more was taken from the ocean than needed, the practice of was engaged in. Things were never wasted.
•  It is important to speak the proper place names of the land. Don’t change the names. The land will live when the history of the land is passed on and respected.
•  The shark goddess Kaahupahau, was still known during Kupuna Eaton’s childhood. Her elders took her to see Kaahupahau, and visit noted places of the shark goddess’s family.
•  Kupuna Eaton believes that it is best to leave ilina in place. If for some reason, this cannot happen, the families of the land should be involved in the decision-making process, and the reinternment should take place in an area close to the place of origin. They were placed in their ilina for a reason, and should be allowed to continue their journey in peace.
•  Kupuna were usually buried on the aina where they came from, and they in turn guarded their descendants that followed on the aina.
•  The land is still sacred, even if sites have been altered or removed. The land remains important and is a part of the history of the Hawaiian people.

Interviewee Arline Wainaha Puulei Brede-Eaton
Interviewers Kepa Maly and Onaona Pomroy Maly
Date August 23, 2011

KM: [Provides Kupuna with background of the traditional cultural properties study; packet of maps; and oral history program.]

So, how can we ensure that the knowledge of places is passed on to future generations? Is it important that we continued to speak place names of the land? So may I just start… we’ll mahaoi a little bit… please share with us your full name, date of birth, and how you came to be familiar with Ewa and Puuloa.

AE: Well, I was born at a luau. My mama, my biological mama came from Lanai, and they were invited to a luau, the Makini side. It was for their first child. The party was going to be at Kapalama, Oahu. So my Tutu papa, my mama’s father, who was the skipper of a boat belong to the Robinson Gay family that owned Lanai brought mama and my three aunties over. Aunty Manoa, Aunty Mahoe, and Aunty Hannah. So all four of them came to 1033 Morris Lane in Kapalama. And while the party was going on mama felt uncomfortable, so she asked my aunty and them, “let’s go in the house.” And low and behold, hanau ia ka pepe, seven and one half pounds, a baby girl, and that was me.

KM: Ae.

AE: So I understand that they cleaned me up, everything, and my Aunty, Jenny Kalehua Brede… she was a Douglas from Hawaii. She married William Elia Brede. They were at the luau. And evidently, somewhere along the way, she had asked mama for the pepe. Hawaiian style is you never say no, especially if you are related. So she was there, and it was her that cleaned me, wrapped me up, and took me home to 1508 Kalihi Road. And I understand that I kept crying. And after a day or two… See that was on Saturday, and by Sunday, she said to my uncle — at that time they are aunty and uncle — “We better go down to Puuloa, to tutu’s place.” Because he [Kaniela Kealoha] was a Kahuna Pule [Reverend]. So that’s how I got down in that area, and they left me there. I stayed there until it was time for me to go to kula. I’d go back and forth. But all my early part of my years, I was there.

KM:  Yes. So Kupuna, your full name?

AE:  Arline Wainaha Kuuleialoha Nakihei Brede Eaton.

KM:  Ae. And so this luau… When was your birth date?

AE:  November 11, 1927.

KM: Hmm, you are so beautiful. So, do you recall hearing how you were brought out here to Pu‘uloa, horse, canoe, train?

AE: The Brede ohana was pretty well off. They had a kaa, so they drove all the way into the area. No more roads, so you just had to go around, and I don’t know, that’s what they said; and came all the way down to tutu’s place. Because once I got there, I realized when I got older, they didn’t even have a kaa. Tutu papa would have a canoe, a two-man canoe, and that’s how he went around. And I would go with him.

KM:  From Puuloa?

AE:  Yes.

KM: You folks lived… I’m going to pull out a map here [opening Registered Map No. 1639]. You lived near the ocean? Is that correct?

AE:  Yes.

KM: So this is an 1873 map of Puuloa. We’re down here by Kapakule, Iroquois Point.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Here’s Puuloa, the houses. And you said the church was nearby too?

AE: Yes. Oh, here’s the windmill. So it was there.

KM:  Tutu papa had his canoe and you folks would go holoholo out here?

AE: Yes. The reason for that is he didn’t have a kaa, he was a fisherman. And over here, we didn’t have that much water, so because of that, he would go into Laulaunui, all the way up there, and trade.

KM: So all the way in here? Ahh, had taro people up here, yes?

AE: Yes. That’s how they did it. Not that we didn’t have. We had dryland taro, but we shared. We would share with them, that’s how I understood it.

KM:  Ae. So poe lawaia would gather from the ocean and paakai, fish, limu like that?

AE:  Yes. And then they take it up there.

KM:  What kind of fish, you remember?

AE: Oh yes. They had kala, moi, manini, all the different kinds of fish.

KM: There were two fish in particular, which the area was famous for?

AE: The anae, yes.

KM:  They call the anae holo.

AE: Yes, yes.

KM: And there’s a story about…

AE:  The anae.

KM: Traveling?

AE:  From there, going around.

KM: Around the island?

AE: Yes. Tutu told me that. We would sit down, after pau, before going to moemoe. She would sit down and tell me stories. It wasn’t that kind like you hear, they talk about fairytales. It was true stories.

KM:  Yes, true. Even where you said up here at Laulaunui, there is a place where they called it Kapapapuhi?

AE: Yes, yes.

KM: And that famous in the story of the anae holo.

AE: Yes, that’s where it comes from. But tutu them, they don’t talk about that to other people [pauses]. Because some people they come, take everything, or else they leave the place lepo.

KM: Ae, hana ino.

AE: Yes, he doesn’t like that. If you do anything good, they are going to give you.

KM:  So if you malama?

AE: You malama. Malama ka aina, malama i ke kai.

KM:  Ae. So you take care of the land and the ocean?

AE:  Yes, they care for you. That’s why, I tell them, I ride with my tutu on Kaahupahau.

KM:  Oh, so you remember the stories of Kaahupahau?

AE: Oh yes. People think I’m crazy.

KM: So tutu still…?

AE: That thing is sharp, you know. But my Tutu mama put clothes for me, and I ride with tutu on her back. [taps the table, like the side of a canoe] They go and they tap like that [taps four times].

KM:  On the canoe?

AE: Yes, on the canoe. Then we go, I go right on top. Sit on top and we go all over.

KM: Because Kaahupahau is…?

AE: She’s the goddess.

KM:  The shark?

AE:  Yes, that’s what my tutu them say.

KM:  Still malama?

AE:  Still malama, take care of that.

KM:  Wow!

AE:  And I learned that. But like I say, when I tell people, they don’t believe me.

KM: But Kupuna, the story that you lived, that you are telling of your young life, we know that that tradition has been passed down over the generations.

AE:  That’s how.

KM:  To your tutu papa’s time and way before then.

AE:  Oh, yes, yes, way before. And like I said, there were only two of us. After that, there was Kealakai.

KM: Kealakai, and the moopuna would come with you?

AE:  Yes. They lived here too. But they were gone most of the time, him and the wife. She would teach hula. That’s why, that picture of me with the hula skirt.

KM:  Yes, yes.

AE:  That’s the reason why. Because she wanted me to learn how to [taps the table, like an ipu].

KM:  Ah, olapa.

AE: I used to think, I look funny in that. They make me dress up, and he had to wear pants too [smiling]. But we never mind. We would run around in only our panties, or run around with nothing… [recalls sneaking to go swimming at the beach with Kealakai]

KM: These are such important histories and traditions to pass down. You’ve mentioned some of the fish. You mentioned Kaahupahau. That still in your lifetime, she was an important presence on the aina.

AE:  Yes.

KM: And the ocean of Puuloa – Ke Awalau o Puuloa.

AE:  Yes.

KM:  Do you remember the saying, “Alahula Puuloa…”?

AE:  Yes [thinking], it’s in the mele, oh I forget the line.

KM:  “Alahula Puuloa, he alahele na Kaahupahau.”

AE: Yes.

KM: So you heard that as a young child?

AE:  Oh yes.

KM:  That’s one of the famous traditions of this place.

AE:  Yes.

KM:  Kaahupahau, and her brother Kahiuka.

AE:  Right.

KM:   Oh, and one other fish, the oio?

AE: Yes. There was so much before. There are so many stories for that. But see, I wasn’t the fisherman, it was Kealakai, Mekia, he was the one. But that fish was ono. It was only places that you go. Tutu would tell, “go here, go there.” Because you have to watch. The fish go to specific areas, and all the young ones, you don’t go over there. You would go to the other place where they were all grown up. And you don’t take any more than you need. We didn’t have ice box. You only take what you can eat. And if we have to, tutu would go out there, get. Then tutu would share.

KM:  Ae. Well you mention that practice, tutu would lawaia out here, and then he would kuapo?

AE:  Yes.

KM:  Exchange with the poe who would kanu…

AE:  Yes.

KM: Kalo and other things like that?

AE:  Yes.

KM: So in this area behind Kapapapuhi, the Honouliuli taro lands?

AE:  Yes. That’s where he would go way up there, up in that area.

KM: Speaking then of these place names, there are so many traditions of how places were given their names. Is it important to pass traditional place names down?

AE: Yes, especially if you know it. We need to pass it on. Because otherwise, they are going to give different names. It’s alright to have names, but they have to be the right names. Just like here, Iroquois.

KM: Is there a proper name here?

AE: Keahi. And you know what’s out there?

KM: What?

AE:  Kanuku. That’s out there [gesturing towards that opening of Puuloa].

KM: Kanuku is the entry, yeah?

AE:  Yes, coming into that. We’re not too far away from there. And that’s where I stayed, out there.

KM: Hmm.

AE: Right there where that entrance is coming in. And the thing is, even though we lived there, we moved on [gestures walking along the coast]. Tutu would have a hale over there. Because certain kinds of fish, you go over there.

KM: So seasonally you knew where to go?

AE: Yes. Nobody else lived in the area, but we have to keep it clean. You cannot go in there with your dirty feet. Everything has to be clean. They always had another hale on the side, and that one, you can sit down and eat. And even that has to be clean.

KM:  Sure, like hale kahumu, hale kuku?

AE:  Yes.

KM:  Where they would eat and prepare their food.

AE:  Yes.

KM:  So your hale moena would be separate where you would sleep?

AE:  Yes. And you never needed door. Before, never had all kind bugs until much later. We didn’t know what that was. We never had such a thing. Then they brought the pipi in. Sometimes they ask me why I don’t eat meat. I say, we only ate what was in the ocean. I didn’t die.

KM:  No.

AE:  Even water. When I go down into kula, I had a hard time. I had to take my own water from there. It was brackish.

KM:  Get flavor, yeah [chuckles]

AE: Yes. And then all of them teased me. [Describes going to school and old-style clothes made by her tutu, which she wore, while others had modern clothes.]

KM: So Kupuna, you have this wonderful experience as a child, growing up in this area here. And tutu would come into this section, West Loch, Laulaunui, the Honouliuli-Hoaeae section; did you folks travel to other places? And do you remember hearing stories… What they are planning is to build this rail which will go through various places. Much of it used to be kuleana, and now everything is all changed.

AE: Yes, that’s right.

KM: So you mentioned once, the place names, as an example, Kalauao.

AE:  Yes.

KM: You said you knew it by another name.

AE: Oh, we spoke about it before. I think it’s written in a book, but you have to go look back. And that’s how I knew that name, during that time. Not Kalauao. It’s a river or a stream that came down.

KM: It is interesting. And on these maps that I’m leaving with you, they go back far, and they show traditional ahupuaa boundaries, which run from the kai for the lawaia, all the way the way to the piko of the mountain.

AE:  Yes.

KM: So they have the large names, and then there are the small names like Kaonohi, Paaiau or Waipahu, which is a small section in Waikele, yeah?

AE:  Yes. Well, I still say that the area now called Waipahu was named by the plantation manager. That’s what my tutu them said. That’s why I keep saying, “It isn’t Waipahu. It’s Waikele.”

KM:  Yes, the ahupuaa.

AE:  That’s what it is, that area. Well, if they want to name that little area. But now…

KM: Yes, they gave the whole name. Kupuna, when we go through the oldest, oldest moolelo and land records, we actually see that Waipahu is a small spring…

AE:  Yes, that’s what it is.

KM: So when the plantation came in, they did just what your Tutu papa said, they took that name. The mill was just a little above there. So they called the whole thing Waipahu.

AE: Yes, that’s right.

KM: So, is it important to speak the names of places?

AE: Yes. That’s why I say Waikele, and Waipahu is just that place. And Kaahupahau used to go in that area. I remember that. Because we would go, my tutu and I would go in that area, go and see. And you see her swimming around there.

KM:  Mano? This big mano?

AE: Oh yes. Yes, that’s why I was telling you. I would get on with my tutu. But people don’t believe me.

KM: Well, that’s okay. Your moolelo is consistent with stories that have been handed down over the generations. And not only here, but other places too… All these stories.

AE:  Yes, and it’s beautiful. I don’t think people understand that, the history.

KM: Yes. Because people don’t understand the history and it is so important to pass it on [pauses]; if this rail project goes through, would a recommendation be to — Take the history from each of these lands and somehow include it into the stories that are being told. Like, they are going to have stations for where the train is going to stop.

AE:  Yes.

KM: Should they put, like our little museum on Lanai, should they put interpretive things that tell you the stories of the land and people?

AE:  Yes.

KM: Maybe even in Hawaiian and English?

AE: Yes, yes.

KM: Like at Waimalu and the story of Maihea and his son who rode the whale from Puuloa.

AE: Maihea, yes. I like that because that way that area will live, it will still be there. It’s not something, that’s what it was before and nobody knows anything about it. Because as it is now, if you look around, everything we have is not ours.

KM:   Ae, nalowale.

AE: Yes. So there we go. So some say, “Why do you tell them everything?” I say if we don’t do it, they going wipe everything out. We tell so that our children will know. So when people come over here, they know what that area is [tapping the table for emphasis].

KM:  So the time for huna is kind pau, yeah?

AE: Yes. Otherwise it will be gone. Then they tell me, “Oh, you getting paid by Haseko.” I said “I don’t get paid by them… ” I fight them all the time. But then God told me, in my prayer, “Get over there. Get over there and find out how you can help.”

KM:  Ae, when you Kokua…

AE: It’s going to be good.

KM:  Yes. So Kupuna, these place names like Waipio, Waikele, Waiawa…

AE:  Waimano.

KM: Yes, and Manana.

AE: See, like Manana, they call that Pearl City. Different. I ask why? Why did they have to give other names like that? It has a name; there is a reason why each one was given. And I am sure that if Aunty Lahilahi [Webb] was living, she would really raise the roof.

KM:  Ae. Well, you will love the moolelo that we are compiling. [Discusses nature of research and collection of Hawaiian records into the study.]

AE: There is a reason for those names. Like go over there to the elementary school, and do a little presentation about the area, and they wanted me to sit down and write all that. So I don’t mind telling them about all that. They should know what their area is about.

KM:  Each place name tells a story.

AE:  Yes.

KM: Is it true that place names were given for a reason?

AE: Yes, they are. Why do they give that name? Like they said, Puuloa. It doesn’t have a hill or anything. But I said “no, doesn’t mean because it’s a hill.” There is a reason for that. Why it comes like that. All the waters come, and there is a reason for it going around.

KM:  Ae, Waiau.

AE: Yes, the swirling waters. Each one has a name. Every single one has a name, and why. The swirling waters, the curving waters, you know.

KM:  Yes. Waipio, Waimano, Waimalu.

AE: Yes, every single one. And I believe that if you really knew anything about it, you would know over there, you would see it. And that’s why you would have all the oysters in that area.

KM:  Ae, the pipi, nahawele, okupe.

AE: Yes, the pipi, good kind. [speaking softly and smiling] I used to go over there, carry the basket over there that tutu them had. But it doesn’t mean anything to anybody else. To me it does. [chuckles] I never looked at what was in there [the little pearls], for me it was what was in there to eat. That’s what I liked, ono!

KM: Hmm. Well, the example of the story with the pipi like that, and they said that you had to “hamau ka leo.”

AE:  Yes.

KM:  You couldn’t talk when you go.

AE: And it’s true. Even when tutu went out, even to go fishing, aole. [gestures, finger to her lips] Hamau. And that’s how you see it coming up, it’s quiet. And it makes sense. You make big noise; they’re all going to disappear. This way [quiet] they’re all coming out, and you choose.

KM: So you take the one you need and leave the rest.

AE:  Yes.

KM: And they say that there was a goddess, a moo?

AE:  Yes.

KM:  Kanekuaana?

AE:  Yes.

KM: And she controlled that.

AE: Yes. She watched, watched over that.

KM: So amazing. This nice old map shows Mokuumeume, even with some of the planted fields, because people lived out here.

AE: Oh yes, had people out here. [looking at map depicting Mokuumeume] I used to like going over here. Because on this particular island, Paahana, the ohana lived in this area.

KM: Paahana?

AE: Yes, you've heard of her. The one from the song.

KM: Yes, oh the one the song is about?

AE:  Yes.

KM:  What’s the song, you remember?

AE:  [thinking] Oh, you sing it for me.

KM:  [singing] He mele keia no Paahana, kaikamahine, noho kuahiwi…

AE:  Yes, yes, that’s it. Now you sing that, I’m going to cry. I cannot help; it reminds me… that’s one of the places that we knew of. My tutu always said, “You go there, malama, take care.” Like what Tutu mama said, what they did to her, that’s not right.

KM:  Yes. And her name lives on in the song by speaking it, and the others are forgotten.

AE:  Yes. That’s right, still lives on. But you know, if I talk to anybody else, it doesn’t mean anything to them. But I like it, I go to certain places, I sing. And my moopuna, tutu sing that again.

KM:  So relative to these aina of the Ewa District, did you ever hear of any heiau around the bays that you remember? And I know that they may not have always spoken about those things. But do you remember?

AE:  I do, but I’ve never really talked about it, because people don’t believe.  No matter what I tell them, so I say, “no use.” They’re not interested in that. That’s why when they have this fellow that talks and goes to the board [asks that his name not be used in the transcript]; he’s telling this, this and that, all that kind. But I don’t say anything. As long as he doesn’t go fool around with my tutu them.

KM:  Yes.

AE:  As long as he doesn’t, I’m not saying a word. If he wants to go, go ahead. But I know different people that were buried in Ewa.

KM:  Well, speaking of that, what are your thoughts about what happens if they are digging the rail and they find iwi? What should happen?

AE:  Well to me, I’m thinking, I know that when the dig up, they are going to find. There was a reason for it being put there.

KM:  Since there was a reason for them being buried there, is that a reason to leave them alone? To leave them in place?

AE: If they could do it, I would say yes. I know it’s not easy, because how they going to work that rail? So something has to be done.

KM: To honor or to respect?

AE:  Yes, to respect them. Have something to honor them.

KM:  A marker or something to indicate…?

AE:  So if they take that iwi, give them a place where they can… Because they’ve been there, way before this thing ever came up.

KM: So Kupuna, e kala mai. Should they be…? If ohana come together and agree, “Okay let’s gather them respectfully," should they put near where they came from or move them down to “Lala land” somewhere else?

AE:  If there is a way where they could be within that area, there’s a reason for it.

KM: So keep them close to where they belong?

AE:  Many of them are buried in those areas because that’s where they’re from.

KM: Yes.

AE:  And it was like they guarded that area for their ohana.

KM: So even though they are dead, they are not gone?

AE:  That’s right.

KM: So their spirit, their aloha for family remains on the land?

AE:  Yes.

KM:  And they protect or watch out for their…

AE:  Family.

KM:  The generations.

AE:  That’s why in this area, they talk about they hear spirits and all kinds of stuff. Maybe they do. I don’t hear it, but in this school, even them, they tell. I pule.

KM:  Yes. This is your ohana.

AE:  That’s why.

KM:  So that also being said, that whole connection to Leilono at Aliamanu and Kapukaki, all the way to Honouliuli, the leaping place of the spirits.

AE:  That’s right.

KM: This was a place of spirits.

AE:  I know.

KM: And if you hana ino them, what?

AE: Pilikia. I’ve seen some, and they tell me when you hana ino like that, you going be like that. Sometimes they get hooio, you cannot be like that, because they are there. But they are the spirits; they probably had no place to go, so that’s where they came.

KM:  Yes, some, they auwana out at Kaupea, Kanehili.

AE: Yes. That’s why I say, “If you don’t hana ino them, they’re good.” But you have to know how. You have to pray, and you talk to them.

KM:  Tutu folks said mihi, mihi aku, mihi mai.

AE: Yes, that’s how. And that’s what I did with my kula [school]. In the beginning they were scared. But you cannot do that. If you want, they can help. I said, “I have no problem, it’s you folks.” Before, they hear the door slam, anything. But now, no more. And we don’t say anything to the new people. They just go merrily along with us. But all of these things are very important.

Oh, this map is wonderful [looking at Register Map No. 1639].

KM: Quite beautiful, 1873, of the Puuloa region. Entrance of the harbor, Kanuku, and where your tutu lived. And across is Halawa. Do you remember Water Town?

AE:  Oh yes, by that… what do the call that military base over there?

KM: Hickam?

AE: Hickam, that’s where Water Town was, as they called it.

KM: Do you remember hearing why Water Town was built?

AE:  [thinking] During that period of time, it didn’t come until… You know Moanalua?

KM: Yes.

AE: There was an overflow, so all people in that area. So they had to move down. How I know is because my dad and he [Damon] were good friends. That’s why, even living in Kalihi, I wonder how we lived in that place, because it’s all Kamehameha lands. Below and above.

KM: [reviews Honolulu region place names] Many of the place names refer to notable people of earlier times.

AE: You write a book about those types of things.

KM: Well, it’s all from talking with kupuna, like you, and when we sat down and spoke with Sister Parish.

AE:  Yes.

KM: And then going through the old native newspapers like that. Your kupuna were such prolific writers. And they were writing because they wanted the history remembered.

AE: Yes, that’s what it was. That’s what they wanted. They wanted people to know, it’s our land. Even though you may have taken it away from us, we still know the area.

KM:  So tutu, as you said, even though it has been taken away, it is still your land.

AE:  Yes.

KM:  It is your kupuna.

AE:  Yes.

KM: So even if the physical remains of the heiau are gone, is the place still important?

AE:  I look at it that way. A good example is, I just went out with this girl. She was looking at the place where Kapolei is. On the right hand they have the place where the kupuna can go. They have a nice place over there. A community center. It’s across the street, so this girl took me there, she wanted to know about that area. So I was telling here from the ocean, all the way up to where we were. I said, “there was a heiau right here.” And the only reason why I know that is because we would have to go down there. Mekia and I. When we would go down to my auntie’s place.

KM:  That was by Kualakai?

AE: Yes, the Kualakai area, because we were going to Kalaeloa. So there was a heiau over there. And that’s where, actually before, they were going fishing, and they had an ahu out there. And I remember that. And Mekia would say, “we go over there, go swim.” I would say “no, tutu said we’re not supposed to go over there.” He’d say, “what tutu?’ “The one over there at Kalaeloa,” Naauao. That’s the one married to Fred Robins. So he tells me “okay.” But when I turn around a look, he’s gone, going over there, and he waves at me, from where the heiau is. Had ahu in that area. But it was interesting. Even though they had that ahu over there, where the girl took me, I said, “You come right up to this area here, the heiau comes all the way.”

KM:  So at Puu o Kapolei, had the heiau there looking down to the ocean?

AE: Yes, yes, that’s right. That’s what I was trying to tell her. That’s what I remembered. I don’t know if anybody else knows about that, because it’s all empty.

KM: Yes, when the military took over, and the plantation above cleared everything, so much was lost. Even when they began quarrying at Puu o Kapolei, they destroyed part of the heiau.

AE:  Yes. All of that all went.

KM:  They don’t think.

AE:  They don’t.

KM:  So tutu, even if we don’t see the physical remains there is still importance on the land?

AE:  Oh yes.

KM: Do you remember when we were sitting with Sister Parish also, one of the very interesting things that she shared was the story about the priest Ka‘opulupulu?

AE:  Oh yes.

KM: And his son, Kahulupue.

AE:  That was true you know.

KM:  And how Kahahana, the king…

AE:  Yes.

KM: The father, Kaopulupulu ran here to Puuloa into the ocean.

AE:  That’s right.

KM:  And what happened?

AE:  You remember her talking to you about that time?

KM: Yes.

AE:  When she was talking about that, I was surprised that she even told, shared it with other people.

KM:  Yes.

AE:  Afterwards I asked her, “How do you know all of this?” She just said, “Because I know, tutu told me.” And she said, “I believe in it.”

KM:  I remember that her tutu, Mii, out Kualoa side was a kahuna.

AE:  Yes, and that’s who it was.

KM:  [Reviews story of Kahekili, Kahahana, Kaopulupulu and Kahulupue and the prophecy of Puuloa.]

AE:  That’s why Kahahana got killed.

KM:  That’s right, he got killed here at Kalauao by the place, Kukiiahu.

AE:  Kukiiahu. But I cannot talk to other people, because they do not know, yeah.

OM/KM:  Yes.

AE:  And now you talk about it, it brings back memories. In the beginning, I have to think about what you are talking about. But now I know. Sister Parish and I would sit down, and I’ve got her paper, you know.

KM:  I’m so glad that you got them. She was working so hard because she wanted to publish her book, but she didn’t live long enough. So it is very important that it not be lost. It was her passion.

AE:  Yes. And she made sit there by the hours, reading… Beautiful.

KM:  Yes, and I thought you would enjoy some of these different maps. They are good for some of the work that you do with the haumana.

AE:  Yes.

AE/KM:  [Discusses genealogical background; work at the Kauhale preservation site on the shore of Honouliuli; and her own kupuna buried at Kawaiahao. Looking through photos and talking story.]

Harry Alama was born in 1958, and began coming to Ewa Beach with his family in the mid-1960s. Harry’s family secured leases on three lots from the Dowsett-Parish family and built homes along the Ewa Beach coast in the late 1930s, early 1940s. When the war broke out they were unable to return to the shore, but after the war, they settled back in. In the early 1960s, development was coming to Ewa Beach and the family decided to give up some of the leases—those are the lands that were later associated with Ted Farm and family.

Harry shared detailed recollections of residents in the Oneula-Ewa Beach area.

The following topics are among those that he discussed during the interview:

•  His dad was a fisherman. The family regularly laid nets and fished in the paipai style. Palanikalaoioaweoweouu (menpachi), hee, and weke were among the fish they’d catch.
•  In the area of Oneula and Hau Bush, they would catch crabs.
•  He and his family collected various limu, among them were huluhulu waenamanauea (ogo), and lipeepee.
•  Recalls sugarcane fields all behind the Ewa Beach regions, and the occurrence of ponds with fish inland.
•  Described Oneula as once having significant sand dunes. The environment has changed, and he considers one source of the problem being development of the reef runway and the deep-draft harbor.
•  Names various surf spots and speaks about the Ewa Beach Surf Club.

Interviewee  Harry Alama (HA)
Interviewer Leimomi Morgan (LM)
Place  Ewa, Oahu
Date February 16, 2014

LM:  Okay, so here with Harry Alama, and I guess we could just with you going as far back as you can to your connection to Ewa.

HA:  Okay…

LM: Kinda like the questions I sent you.

HA: My connection to Ewa Beach goes back to the family of Bernhard Gustave Cordes, and that’s my father’s uncle. My father’s name is Bernhard Gustave Alama, so he was named after my dad’s uncle. And his wife, Aunty Louise, worked for a lawyer, and the lawyer used to get involved in land deals. And so, through her they acquired the lease for the beachfront land.

LM: And what was her name?

HA: Aunty Louise Cordes, that’s his wife.

LM:  Ohh, okay.

HA: So, this is Sonny, this is his nickname is nickname is Sonny, Uncle Sonny Cordes. So, most people know him as Sonny. And, Uncle Sonny worked for Aloha Motors, he was a car salesman for Aloha Motors, and his oldest sister is my grandma. And the family was real close. My grandmother and my grandfather really kind of supported most of the younger siblings.

LM: And they were the Alamas, too?

HA: My grandfather’s an Alama, my grandmother’s a Cordes.

LM:  What kind of name is that?

HA: Cordes is German. My great-grandfather’s name was Gustave Cordes, and he came to Hawaii from Germany in the 1800s. He came from Bremen, Germany. One of the stories I was told was that he was a part of the Royal Mounted Guard that worked for the queen, and that after she was overthrown, he didn’t have a job, so he moved out of town, he moved all the way out to the west side, and squatted. So, he married a Hawaiian lady, and her name is Mary-Ann. I was told that it was Mary-Ann Kahalewai, but the records say Mary-Ann Ulili.

LM: They always had all kine different names. Ulili?

HA: Yeah, but I think her middle initial was K.

LM:  Ohh, okay. So maybe that was her name…

HA: My dad’s oldest brother left Hawaii in 1938, and what he told me one time, he came in 1986, he came home, and it was I think his 76th birthday. And, he came to my house with my dad, and we talked a lot. He was really book-smart about the culture, he was actually close to my great-grandparents, he lived with them, and then they died. But, he told me…

LM: What was his name?

HA: Teddy, Theodore. My dad’s oldest brother. Theodore Maili Alama. I lost my train of thought.

LM: Okay, sorry! So… Mary-Ann Kahalewai Ulili and Gustave Cordes, that was your great-grandparents. And then, they had…

HA: They had Bernhard Gustave, and Mabel (my grandma) is the eldest daughter of the Gustave Cordes family. So, they had like 7 children. My grandma was the first born. She was born like in 1892.

LM: Okay, so, Bernhard Gustave Cordes and Aunty Louise, but you called him Uncle Sonny, they had…

HA: Yeah, this is the family. They had one daughter who was Sylvia. Mabel is my grandma, my grandma is his oldest sister. There’s also a Theodore Cordes, Uncle Teddy Cordes, which is all different. My dad’s brother told me that my great-grandmother, Mary-Ann, was married before she married Gustave Cordes. So, I’m thinking that Ulili was her married name. ’Cause it’s in the record books, Gustave Cordes and her, their marriage is recorded and it’s on record. So if you look it up, you’ll find it, and any reference to her is under the Ulili.

LM: Okay, so, if we could just connect it down to you through the Alama.

HA: Okay, so my dad’s mom is Mabel Cordes, and she married Aina Alama.

LM:  And so she was the German, but part-Hawaiian.

HA: She’s half-German, half-Hawaiian. But my grandfather is half-Chinese, half-Hawaiian.

LM:  Ohh, I see. And then they had your dad?

HA: So, they had 8 kids. And I think they had 7 in her family (Mabel). But my dad was number 5.

LM:  And then your dad’s name…

HA: Bernhard Gustave Alama. So he’s close to Uncle Sonny because he was named after Uncle Sonny.

LM:  Ohh, I see, okay.

HA: So, getting back to the Ewa Beach story. Uncle Sonny, the extended family… Back then, the families were really tight. We used to all get together with my grandparents’ generation, so there might be like 30 people. Because you have their grandparents, and then their children, and we were like the little children. But, that extended ohana on the Cordes side, one of my dad’s uncles his name is Tommy Chong.  He worked for the Damon Estate, so Uncle Tommy was the Damon Estate driver and mechanic. And that was the job that his father had, his father was the original chauffer back when it was horses, so Uncle Tommy worked for Damon. And, another man, his name is Jackie Roxburg, he worked for Damon and he was the landscape guy, he was the gardener. He took care of all the gardens. Way back Moanalua Valley, before it became what it is, Moanalua was all the way to the ocean, yeah. That ahupuaa goes from the mountain to the ocean. So the lower part of the ahupuaa is where… what is that place called? What is that area below, it’s all developed.

LM:  Yeah, yeah… umm… Mapunapuna.

HA: Mapunapuna! Yeah, okay, that's the lower part of Moanalua Valley. Before that was developed it was just all wetlands. And, I guess the Roxburg family, they kinda took care of all the… my mom said it was really beautiful just to have… like you ever been to the Pagoda Restaurant?

LM:  Umm hum…

HA:  It’s like that. It’s all water, but on top the water everything was built on stilts.

LM:  Ohh, that’s like Waikiki.

HA: So, it’s hard to imagine, but that’s why over there always gets flooded. ’Cause it’s naturally like a wetland. Like Waikiki, if they didn’t have the canal, it would be a problem. So, Uncle Sonny and Jackie Roxburg, who was a member of the Damon workers. And, I’m not sure about this part… but their third house, that was Kui Ching, was another uncle. He owned Tire-Recap Service. Tire-Recap Service, they kinda worked hand-in-hand with Aloha Motors (Uncle Sonny was a car salesman at Aloha Motors), so those three people got leases for the land [in Ewa Beach]. So, if you start at the very first house, where the old road started, the land before that was all owned by the Parish family now, but before that it was the Dowsett family. Like by Punahou, that Dowsetts, they were ranchers, they owned the land up to Fort Weaver Road, and then they ended up buying it all the way along Papipi Road to where the end of the houses were. And so, Mrs… her name was Parish, she passed away already. She owns that land. Kepa Maly did an interview with her, there’s a thing about One‘ula that he did. So there’s a great article, she explains the land that her grandparents owned. And, so after that, the Ewa of Campbell Estate had the land for all the sugarcane. But, it was intermixed with lots of ranchers. So, from where the Campbell Estate land was, they leased out the land, and the first lot was leased to Mr. Francis Ching. He’s another old Ewa Beach family, the Chings. And so, Francis Ching had the first lot, and the next lot was leased to the Matsunaga family, and the Matsunaga family is Emma and Eddie. And then the third lot was Uncle Sonny’s house, the fourth lot was Jackie Roxburgh’s house, and the fifth lot was Kui Ching’s house. So, those three lots, they got together as a hui, and they’re all one acre lots along the ocean. They’re one acre, pretty square almost, one acre. And, my grandfather and Uncle Tommy and all of the relatives, they built the houses, the three houses. And so from 1940, I heard ’39, ’40, I don’t know exactly the time, they built those houses, and they used to go down there and it was just the beach house, you know a weekend thing. And during the war (WWII), the government took the houses away and the ocean was barb-wired up, so they couldn’t go down there during the war. So, from ’41 to ’42, 1942–1945, they couldn’t go down there. And then sometime, I guess around 1960, Jackie… they were already telling him that there was gonna be a big development, so Jackie decided they weren’t ever gonna be able to buy the land, so he gave up the lease. And, that’s when Ted Farm got it. But, my grandparents, my grandfather and the family, Uncle Tommy, they’re the ones that actually built those houses. Then across the street, on the mauka side, those were all big lots, like 4 acre lots. And, I didn’t the people there too well. I knew the people that lived right across the street from Uncle Sonny’s house, that was the Tanaka family. And, I knew um because there was a store called Tanaka Store, and the daughter was my classmate at elementary school. So, I knew them. And then, their nephew, whose family actually owned Tanaka Store, he and I became friends because he used to make surfboards. He’s like maybe 10 years older than I am, but he used to make surfboards across the street from where the beach house was. And, I got two or three surfboards from him. We’re friends till today.

LM:  What’s his name?

HA:  Tanaka. Isaac Tanaka. He’s in that thing [Swaylocks blog online] under “Ike.” His login is “Gutrs” ’cause he owns a gutter company.

LM:  Ohh, okay.

HA: So, during the years from I guess ’50s on to about 1965, the beach house was, I don’t know what was going on. But there was a family that used to go down there a lot, and their name is Philips. And, sometime from the late ’50s till ’65, the used to actually take care of the house. And they live in Ewa Beach. And those brothers are all about 10 years older than I am, down to about 5 years. And their connection is the dad was a police officer, and the police used to buy all their cars from Aloha Motors. Aloha Motors was one time a really big company, they used to occupy the land at the convention center. So, anyway, in 1960, the land that’s right across the street from Ewa Beach Shopping Center, the old Ewa Beach Shopping Center, they developed houses over there. And, that was one of the first places that they actually, the developer went in and built the whole community. So, you just paid your money and then you bought a house. And, then before that, Ewa Beach, you bought a lot, and they you had to get somebody to build a house. So it was little bit more involved, little more hassle. My dad, my grandfather was a project manager and he was also a surveyor for the Army Corps of Engineers, and because of that, he was involved in building all the harbors. And, he took my dad out the Big Island, I think it was probably the ’46, 1946 tidal wave, and showed him the damage. So, my father would never buy a house that was in the tidal wave inundation zone. When they built that subdivision, that new subdivision, it was in the safe zone. And it was low enough in price that he could afford to buy a house, so they bought that house over there. They were just starting to build it, so you had to like sign up. So he qualified, he bought the house, and we moved over there about 1960. And, I’m sure that he bought the house there because it was also close to the beach house. But in 1961, we were sent to Germany, my father was in the army. And, we went to Germany, and we were away till 1965, so in 1965, he came back to Hawaii, and that’s when we started going to the beach house. So, my first memories of the beach house were from 1965, my first memories of Ewa Beach are from 1965.

LM: How old were you?

HA: I was seven. Seven years old. I had just made seven. And, we came home in the end of September, so I started 2nd grade in Ewa Beach Elementary School. Then we started to go down to the beach in the summer, the beach house. And at the time, nobody was living there, it was just a weekend house. My father, Uncle Sonny asked my father and my father’s brother if they could fix the house up because my grandmother’s younger sister had moved back to Honolulu from Molokai. She spent most of her life living on Molokai. And she moved back to Honolulu and she was living down by Kapiolani Boulevard on Fern Street. She wasn’t doing too good. She was having bad asthma. I think it’s just that you go from a really country, rural world to the city, it’s just hard. So, Uncle Sonny let her stay at the beach house. And she moved in down there around ’67–’68. And she lived in the beach house till she died in 1974. And Aunty Girlie, she kinda was our surrogate hanai grandma. ’Cause my grandmother moved to the mainland I think just after I was born, just before I was born. She moved to the mainland and she never came home, she just came home for vacations. But Aunty Girlie, she took us in as her grandchildren. And she was only a mile away, and I spent all my time at the beach house. So, she’s the one that used to tell us all the stories about her grandma, which she always said, Mary-Ann Kahalewai. If you talk to the Kahalewais, they’ll tell you that we’re related to the Cordes family. So, I believe Aunty Girlie’s stories were true. So, Aunty Girlie, whose name was Wilhelmina, she was a real tom-boy. So, Uncle Sonny and all the brothers, there was Sonny, Wilhelm, and Teddy, they all respected her, ’cause if not she’d give um lickings. So she lived at the beach house for a good 5, maybe 6–7 years and she was as much of a grandmother to me as I’ve ever had in my life. I really love her. So, I used to spend all of my free time over there, my dad used to spend all of our time over there. Even if it was like this [rainy] weather, we’d be at the beach house. And it could be storming rain and we’d be there in the house, just sitting there while my dad would be there. And so Aunty Girlie would tell us all this stuff. She had like a little farm there, she came from Molokai. Her daughter and her son-in-law worked for Hawaiian Airlines, and he was a pilot, so he used to bring back all kind of animals. He used to bring back goats and things. He used to hunt there all the time. He brought back two baby goats, so we had a male goat and a female goat, and so they had milk, and then they had ducks, and chicken. And two houses down where Uncle Kui’s house was, when Uncle Kui passed away, the lady, his ex-wife, Aunty Ah Lan, she was related to my father but I don’t know how. She decided to rent the house out, so she rented it to this guy who started raising pigs. His name was Alfred AhLoo. So, those are all kind of animals. Alfred had a cow at one time. And then, Ted didn’t, he didn’t have pets. Animals were always for food. But, he had raised some things, he had a horse because his son, his brother-in-law was drunk one night and he promised to get a horse for the youngest son. And so, when the time came that he was supposed to, the son said, “I thought you gonna buy me a horse?” and he actually bought him a horse. And then, when the ranch that was kind of taking care of the horse, when they closed up, they brought the horse down to the beach. But, we never rode it, it was kind of an old horse.

LM:  Because these were all acre lots, that’s why?

HA: Yeah. And, almost every single lot, except for Uncle Kui’s lot, the land, they didn’t even use it all. The corral was small, it wasn’t a big corral. And behind, there was a water tank and pump. But, by the time we came back from the mainland, they weren’t using the water tank anymore. There were two wells. The Matsunaga family had a well and the Roxburg family had a well, but the water was brackish water so we couldn’t drink it. So the water was only useful to irrigate the grass, and the land that I would say, a good quarter of the lots were just kiawe. Haole koa and kiawe. Just, you know, just real wild. And only the close part to the water was where we had opening area. And Uncle Sonny’s was probably the one lot that had the most open area. And that was good so Aunty Girlie had lots of space. The two goats were like, they were a combination of like watch-dog and grass-cutters, ’cause they eat grass. That was a really good time. I really had a good time there while she was alive. She passed away in September of ’74, and then after she passed away, Uncle Sonny decided to just come down every weekend, ’cause he was kinda getting old already and time was short. And then, after he died, his daughter Sylvia, who never, ever came down to the beach, she started coming down. And she came down every weekend until she had to give up the house. So, over time things evolved, but by then I was already married, then. I moved to town in 1982, so I’ve been living in town since ’82. I only come out [to Ewa] to see my mom and dad and go beach. My father passed away in 2006.

LM: Who is your mom?

HA:  My mother’s name is June. She’s from Japan.

LM:  Ohh, okay.

HA: But, during the summers, from about the time we were 4th grade, 3rd or 4th grade, we didn’t go to summer fun anymore. We went to the beach. And my mom would drop us off, and Aunty Girlie would take care of us, and we would just spend all day at the beach, go swimming all day long. We would hang out with Aunty Girlie, she would tell us stories about all kinds of stuff. She taught us basically what to do and it was good that she had kids around ’cause most of her grandkids were all Kailua side, or Maui, or Molokai. So, we spent a lot of time down there. Seen it change, seen it change a lot.

LM: And so, does your mom still live in the house in Ewa?

HA: She lives, yeah same house I grew up in. She’s never gonna leave there. It’s got too much emotional… it’s actually, there’s a lot of aloha in that yard. She has the best mangoes, I mean it, she has the best Haden mangoes that I’ve ever tasted. And at one time she had the best limes. The lime tree got messed up from white flies, so it’s only about 3 feet tall now, used to be really big, but it still has really good fruit. I love the limes. And, everything my dad planted grew really well. But then he decided to concrete over the whole front, so a lot of the stuff we dug out. You know, I think there’s just a lot of love in that yard, so if she goes, I don’t think the trees are gonna be the same. There’s something there.

LM: Yeah. So, in the blog, Swaylocks, you guys talk a lot about this surf club that you guys had…

HA:  Yeah, like for us, for my father the ocean is about fishing.

LM: So your dad was like a fisherman?

HA: My dad loved the ocean, but he was past playing in the ocean. And so, that’s what we did, we played in the ocean. My dad liked to catch fish. But, what we used to do is we used to catch fish with nets, so we would do the paipai nets, and what happens is they’d be sitting down and maybe watching the water and somehow they can see the fish. And, they could see the fish, I guess their tails or something. So they would wait and wait, and we’d have everything ready, and then all of a sudden they’d go, “Let’s go!” and we’d all get together and they would take a big, huge airplane inner tube with the net, and they’d lay it out. And once they got it laid out, then they’d make us line up, and all of the kids would jump in the water and we would swim out and we would splash and splash and we would make a lot of noise. And then, in about 5 minutes, they would start pulling the net in, and you either catch, or you don’t catch. And most of the time we’d catch limu. ’Cause Ewa beach is known for its limu, yeah? So we would spend the next hour cleaning the net of all the limu. And the fish in Ewa beach that we used to catch were huge. Like the fish eyes like this big, the net [about 4 inches wide].

LM: Wow…

HA: So, if the fish isn’t that big, it’s gonna go right through. So fish like palani and kala, they’re generally pretty good sized fish. We catch awa and oio, and you’ll see some pictures in that blog if you actually look. The fish, generally like this [3 feet] long. And, it was either awa, oio, and kala. Kala and palani were like this [2 feet] long. And then, sometimes we’d catch sharks. Wouldn’t be on purpose, they’d just get caught. So that was the main way of fishing. And then the next level of fishing would be to go out in the water with scuba tanks. And so, they would go, and it was always only the men. So, we didn’t do that till we got older, like high school age. But they would go out and they would be gone for an hour, maybe two hours, and they would come back and they would have a lot of fish.  And the fish would be like aweoweo or menpachi. Sometimes weke, occasionally they’d catch the squid. But they would be going way out, so normally you don’t get the squid way out, it’s usually close in. And then, we would catch crabs. Outside of the place called Hau Bush Beach, now everybody thinks this [points to the map] is Hau Bush, this is not Hau Bush. Hau Bush is over here [more towards Puuloa]. So between Oneula park, over here there’s two really big parks. One park was the Del Monte park, which is the one next to it, and this is called CPC and that was for California Packing Company. And then Ewa Plantation had a park, which was right next to Uncle Kui’s house. And Ewa Planation park is where the Hau Bush grew, around the garden there was an area [about 12 feet long] that was from here to where that man is [pointing], it was Hau Bush trees. And they had a metal frame, and so the Hau Bush grew up along this metal frame. You could picnic underneath there and it would like a natural shade. And then next to it there was a metal area, where you had open air with metal (??). And then after that was the Del Monte park. The Del Monte park had small, little cottages like 10 by 10 and like 5 or 6 of these cottages. I guess people could stay overnight and go fishing. Outside of that, they had really good fishing, crabbing. We used to go crabbing when I was really young. In one hour we could get a 5 gallon bucket of white crab. And that’s only the male adults. We throw away all the little guys, we put um back in the water, and any of the women, the female crabs, you put it back in the water. You only take the big males, and if you do that, you still get a big bucket. Sometimes you even get two 5 gallon buckets. Come in, and we eat crab, the whole family, maybe like 20 of us, we eat crab for like till you get stuffed. So we did that every weekend. Uncle Kui would make a big, they had this big wok, and he would make chow fun every Saturday for lunch. And then whatever fish and stuff we catch, they had a stove outside and they could fry up like the aweoweo, menpachi, pan fry um, right there. We had it good, man. We had it real good. And then everybody got old. ’Cause Uncle Kui was my dad’s uncle’s age, and he passed away first. And then one by one all the uncles. So, if you look at all the beach houses, the first house is the Ching family, and they were kinda, they had fence along their property, so they were kinda isolated. And he didn’t live there, he rented it out, he had 5 houses on it. He rented out all 5 houses. And then you had Aunty Emma’s house, and then you had Uncle Sonny’s house, and then you had Jackie’s house, which became the Farm’s house, and then you had Uncle Kui’s house and the ‘Ewa Plantation, so there was another fence over here [pointing on the map]. So these four houses were like one ohana, and every weekend if Aunty Emma wasn’t there, then her nephew, Mr. Matson, Bill Matson, he would come. And Uncle Bill had three sons, Billy, Michael, and Matt. And so he’d come down with his three sons and his wife Aunty Maude and they’d stay there the whole weekend. And then we would be at Uncle Sonny’s house until Aunty Girlie moved in. And then, Uncle Ted was living here by the time we came home from the mainland. And he would be there and his wife’s family is the Awai family from Haleiwa, and on weekends, quite often, they would all come down. And that family included the Rosehill family and the Awais, and then he had a whole bunch of friends, like the Young family, which was Alfred Young, we called him Uncle Ah Hung he would come with his kids. And sometimes the Lee family, they all had kids about the same ages. We all went to Kamehameha at the same time, we’re all 5–10 years in age difference, so multi-generational families. And then Uncle Kui who kinda was just him and his wife, so between these four houses we could have like 20 people spending the weekend. What we used to do is we only spent the day there, we would get down there like 8 or 9, and we would leave around 9 or 10, go home sleep, come back the next day. And everybody else would stay. And it was kinda how we spent our weekends. When Aunty Girlie came and lived there, we would go to her and stay there, hang out, and even if it was raining, we would come down and we would hang out. And sometimes, my brother, sister and I, we would be wearing blue jeans and jackets, and we’d be walking outside, but we’d still be there. Just a really good time. And then, at the very end over here [pointing on the map], there was a chicken farm right here. That was owned by Mr. Joe Park. The Park family, interestingly, Joe Park’s brother, Harry Park, and my father we really good friends. I’m named after Harry Park. So, we got to know Joe Park pretty well. His daughter Robin is my brother’s age, and we’re all calabash cousins. So, all of this area, we pretty much, to us it’s just all a big family. That’s kind of it. Anything else you want to talk about? Oh, the surf club?

LM:  Yeah.

HA: The surf club is not from Oneula, the surf club is from the other end, and those guys… so the guys that started the surf club, they’re all like 1960s graduates of high school. So, you have names like the Sadowsky brothers, there were several of them. You have names like the Moody, the Moody brothers. I think there’s three or four of the Moody brothers.

LM:  Yeah, you list all of them in your blog.

HA: Yeah. So the original members of the Ewa Beach surf club would be the Sadowsky brothers and the Moody brothers, the Silva family, they have a store called Silva Store and it’s on Ewa Beach road. And you got this man, Lester Inamoto, and a few other guys. And they kinda just created this club, apparently they were all really good surfers. But they were before my time. They were from the other side of Ewa Beach. We stuck to this side, which was really just four beach houses. I knew all these kids that grew up here, but on that end, I only went there like when I was between 7th and 9th grade. And it’s really down here, see Fort Weaver Road, it goes down and it turns into Ewa Beach Road and then the houses along the water. So, a lot of these guys, they graduated between 1965 and 1971. Some of them were like ’73 or what not. But because I went to Kamehameha, I didn’t really hang out on this side too much.

LM: So did you know Mark [Kahalekulu] at Kamehameha? What year did you graduate?

HA: Mark is a ’74, I’m a ’76. My brother’s a ’74. So, Mark, and my brother, and two other guys went to Kamehameha from Ewa Beach. And they all had to board. At one time Mark was one of my closest friends. We spent a lot of time together from about 1972 till around 1976 when I started working full time.

LM:  Did you board, too?

HA: (Shakes head “no”) When I went to Kamehameha they changed, the expanded the bus service.

LM: Ohh, so they had just changed it, like right before you.

HA:  They did, they said they didn’t want another Alama up there. (Jokingly)

LM:  [laughing]

HA: Nah, I think that because we paid for the buses, it made more economic sense because they could expand the school and have more kids versus just having boarding students. But I think boarding students was probably better. So anyway, they created that Ewa surf club with those guys and they actually did really well in the contests, but again like I said it was kind of before my time. But, I’d say a good handful of those guys were as good as anybody else on Oahu as surfers. And they even won like the Akahi International Surf Contest, John Sadowsky and they said Lester [Inamoto] was one heck of a surfer. And several of the other guys. I knew a couple of the ones that were younger, a family that has been in Ewa Beach a long time is the Eaton family. And you may have gone to school with a couple of them.

LM:  I’ve just heard their name a lot.

HA: Cal’s kids and Clayton’s kids, they’re about your age. The youngest one is I think my daughter’s age. And Cal is three years older than I am, so I knew him both from Kamehameha and from the beach. His brother is five years older than he is, so I only know him from the beach, and I didn’t know him very well at all because he moved out of Ewa Beach when I was still in high school. But I just remember him because he’s just this really big, spooky guy. And the other families, like the Philips family that used to watch the house, Tommy has quite a good memory about stuff, and they still like on Papipi Road. But they kinda moved down to Ewa Beach in ’58 or so. Guys like Mark [Kahalekulu] I didn’t realize how long his family’s been here. Other families that would be like good value is the Mitsiatsu family. And, I think Myron still lives in Ewa Beach, John moved to Mililani. But if you go back and you look at the interview that Kepa did with the Parish lady, she talks about the Mitsiatsus and they were here way back. They used to make charcoal or something. So, their connection to Ewa Beach goes way back. They’re another family that had quite a bit of land in Ewa Beach. But I don’t know exactly where they got the land. And then of course the Parish family who are the descendants of the Dowsetts. If you look at this map, the Parish family, they’re all this side where Ewa Beach Road goes like this, that then there’s Parish Drive like down here, and then the Mitsiatsu family, see this big open lot, that’s their lot. But they owned all this land over here. They made houses and sold it. They’re an old time family. We all grew up together, we all know each other and they’re very involved in little league baseball when I was a kid. I’m not too sure about other really old time families. Most of the people lived along here, along here, and then along the beach, there’s two roads. One called Pohakupuna, that’s the road that Mark’s family. And then the other is Fort Weaver, so this came in later, so we had the two roads. Fort Weaver went all the way to Iroquois Point and then Pohakupuna went all the way down, and then they built all these other houses. And see that park right here, my dad’s house is like right there. I think it’s the white roofed one. That’s where I grew up there. So, this was the first increment. From here, along this street, this is the first increment and then this is the second increment [pointing on map]. Might be like second, third. So when I grew up Ewa Beach consisted of these houses, and these houses, and then the houses that were hereSo when I grew up Ewa Beach consisted of these houses, and these houses, and then the houses that were here…

LM:  Along the beach.

HA: And right here is Campbell High School. This is North Road, so that Kulana Village thing that they built is around here. Is where they built the low-income housing. Then later on they built this really big area here called Ewa Beach Estates. It’s bigger than this I think, it goes way back. And this was all sugarcane field we used to play in. And this was all sugarcane, this was all sugarcane, [pointing on map where houses are today]. There used to be, probably like over here somewhere, there used to be artesian ponds.

LM: Oh, yeah there still is I think.

HA:  We used to go swimming in them. Not the salt water, the artesian ones. And it was somewhere around here, up higher. And we used to go swimming in those ponds, it was really cold water and used to have lily pads and used to have carp and we’d go swimming in there. And then way back here, way back here somewhere they had artesian ponds. This was like a big U shape, and this was like three separate ponds. We only swam in the one that was furthest, the other ponds had lots of fish and stuff and we didn’t want to go swimming in them. The first one was probably like this [points to a small area about 5 feet wide] we had a hill so we’d come down this hill, and we’d ride our bikes and we’d launch um up in the air and we’d land in the water.

LM: [laughing] That sounds fun.

HA:  Yeah…

LM: Do you miss it? The way that it was?

HA: Yeah, what I really miss is, before they built the bigger [housing] area, there still was a lot of open space in here. Like there’s Makule Road and stuff which was a really old road, there still was a lot of open space. In fact, the Mitsiatsus owned a lot of this and they didn’t develop it. And had really old, old buildings, and we used to say they were haunted. So, used to be spooky, you ride by it, and you might ride like the length of this building [the Zippy’s restaurant in Ewa], with just kiawe trees and haole koa, and then there’d be this building but there was nobody living in it, real old, it was like for ghosts. And then, you gotta go past that to get back to the houses again. It was kinda like, everybody’d make up stories. But they built all houses on it, so along in this area, they developed it all. But when I was a little kid, they didn’t develop it, had houses in here, and had houses along the beach, and this area over here didn’t have too many houses. So, what I was getting to is they didn’t have anything. I think there was like only 2,000 houses, max, this had like 1,000 or less (one section on map) and then all this was like 1,000 (another area on map). And so, on Halloween, we would go everywhere. Just get plenty candy. And the families would know, like if you went twice, they’d throw rocks in your bag.

LM:  [laughing] That’s funny.

HA: [laughing] And if you were a bad boy, guarantee, that night your mom and dad would know about it. So, that’s how you kinda take care of stuff. Everybody takes care of everybody, right? And it was good. I think a lot of the moms stayed home. Everybody, we were like I guess, I wouldn’t say lower income levels, but we weren’t like low class. You know when you’re poor but you don’t know you’re poor?

LM:  Yeah...

HA: You have everything you need, so it don’t matter. That’s how life was. And, most of the people worked for the military in one way or another. Either as a civilian, ’cause there was Barber’s Point, there’s Pearl Harbor, there’s Hickam, and there’s Schofield and Wheeler. So, everybody sorta worked for one of the military places, or worked for the plantations. And then a lot of the people over here, they were all business people, lotta haoles in this area. Local haoles. They were more like a different income level, a little higher income level, more business types. But we were all the same, we all grew up together, and probably the richest kid I knew was Timmy, whose father owned the bakery. But, you know, they weren’t rich, they just were able to do a lot of stuff, you know, travel every year. And I spent most of my time staying with Timmy. Timmy’s house is like right over here [pointing on map, close to his parents’ house] 5 houses away. And I really liked growing up in Ewa Beach because it was small. And I used to get mad when people said I live in the country. Because it wasn’t country, like I think of farms and stuff, it was just real regular houses and stuff, it’s just that we were real isolated. But down here [by the beach] was country, ’cause one acre lots, that’s kinda nice. That part I miss, I miss that a lot. The open space, we had our own private beach. One of things that’s kinda sad is the sand movement is altered. I think it’s a combination of the reef runway and the development of the deep-draft harbor, but in front of here there is very little sand. And if you go down to the One‘ula Beach park now, there used to be big sand dunes at Oneula, right here. Big sand dunes, like maybe 20 feet high, right along the water. And there were like craters. We used to go down here when I was like in 5th grade, 4th grade, and we used to make fires and stuff inside there at night and hang out. And dad them, they’d all be down the beach house and you know we could sneak away. There were pillboxes all along the shore, there were like 7 pillboxes along the shore. And they were like as big as a car. And there were two separate rooms. The room that faced the ocean had this long slit window for the machine gun. And then the back room was higher.  The first couple were kinda buried underneath the sand, so only half of them were sticking up. And there was so much sand in there you couldn’t go in um. But as you got further down, there was less sand in um and you could actually go in um. And we used to play in there. Just really different. But, they took all of the pillboxes out, sometime, I don’t know when. They just tore um out. And then, I hadn’t gone back here since high school time, so I don’t know too much about the changes back in here. I know the road changed from going straight to having a big turn, it kinda went like this, but it used to be just one long straight road. And it was like, I can’t describe it. I guess if you go down to like Sandy Beach, and you’re driving along down by Queen’s pond, where there’s just no real roads, like that, but with really deep potholes. As big as this booth [about 4 feet by 3 feet], so it really kept the speed of the cars down.

LM:  [laughing] That’s good.

HA: And that’s kind of it. One thing I regret, I always thought that, if anything ever happened I could live off the ocean. But, I don’t think you could live off the ocean anymore. I don’t think that there’s enough food out there. And I don’t think the food would be fine, you could eat it all. I think a lot of it has been contaminated by ciguatera. My friends catch a lot of octopus, but not quite as much fish. And, there’s a lot of fish but they told me I can’t tell people where. [laughing]

LM:  Yeah, that’s fine, I understand.

HA: I’d like to go out here one day [Ewa Beach] and try crabbing again, ’cause it’s been a long time. And, if they came back it’d be interesting to find out. But I don’t think people know anymore. Because at one time they built that pipeline, yeah? I think the pipe, there’s a sewage treatment plant somewhere. So they built a pipeline that goes all the way through here. It went right through here, it’s probably right around here [pointing on the map]. And it went all the way out, so I don’t know how that affected it, but nobody’s gone crabbing here since the ’80s. Might be crabs out there. Have you ever had white crab? Haole crab? Sort of like a grayish shell with little spots.

LM:  I don’t think so…

HA:  They get to be like this [1/2 a foot] big.

LM:  Uh uh…

HA: Anything that’s fresh.

LM: You just eat it raw?

HA:  Yeah, anything that’s fresh. If they’re like this big [3 inches], they make um raw.

LM: I’ve had little ones like that, like at parties and just you suck it out and it’s so good.

HA:  It’s sweet, yeah? When you get the big ones, and you cook um, they’re still sweet if they’re just cooked. And they don’t smell as bad.

LM:   Yeah…  [laughing]

HA:  ’Cause that crab has a strong smell. I mean, it’s not like a bad smell, it’s just a real strong, fishy smell.

LM: Okay, so anything else you might just wanna share, like concerns you have or…

HA: Well, no, I think, at one time, and it really has nothing to do with this thing. Like one time I was hoping that we could have a plaque down there somewhere like where all the houses were, where all the people that lived there could have their names. Like a big rock or something. From the old-timers like, I only know from the time that Uncle Sonny guys were there. But I know there’s people that might have been there like before. And from the time that our families were there till today, it went through changes as well. So, you have the original 5–6 families, and then you have all the people that lived there, renting houses, like Mr. Farm rented his house for a while. Families that lived on Francis Ching’s lot, like the Okamuras and the Huddys. I remember them when we were growing up, they were all part of this ohana. And it’s sad ’cause you know when they bought the land [by the beach entrance], we had to park over here and walk all the way down. And it’s a pretty good walk. But then my friend Joey lives at the first house, his wife grew up over there. So he gave me the combination to his house, so I can go there when I want. And I been doing that for the last year. But before that, I wasn’t going down there too much. My brother would just go over here [further down west] and surf over here, but it’s really different down this side.

LM:  So, you still go surfing out over here [close to where he grew up at his family beach house]?

HA:  Yeah. Whenever I can.

LM: And what do you guys call it?

HA: It’s called Shark Country.

LM:  Ohh, I see, that’s Shark Country.

HA: So from the end where the houses are, there’s a little point like this, you see the land goes like that?

LM:  Yeah.

HA: This is like a big bay that goes from here to here, the reef is like that. So, from the very end of this side, this is called the Sea Wall because there’s a little place where you can, there’s a turn around and there’s a wall, so that’s called the Sea Wall. And that is the first break. And then Shark Country and Sea Wall are like next to each other, really close. And then after Shark Country, again, because of the way the reef is, Shark Country breaks out here. Hau Bush is in here. Hau Bush is the inside break. And then you have this place called Chicken Creek. Which is because of the chicken farm, and what used to happen was in the winter, the rain would come through and then go straight through the chicken farm. And all the chicken manure would get mixed in the rain water and go out. And that’s why we called it Chicken Creek.

LM: Ohhh, ewww [laughing].

HA: Nobody ever surfed over there!

LM:  Ohhh, [laughing].

HA: And next to that where the park starts is called Sand Tracks. And then after Sand Tracks, and that had the big sand dune right there, after Sand Tracks, there’s a couple of little spots that I never called anything. And then on the corner of the park is John’s, and the name John’s is from John Sadowsky.

LM:  Ohhh.

HA: He was the number one surfer in Ewa Beach in the early ’60s. John Sadowsky, he used to surf out here. I guess he used to surf out there a lot so we called it John’s. Then you got The Cove right here, and then Tree Stumps. And then after Tree Stumps, I don’t know what they call this area, and then you got Barber’s Point which used to be called Officer’s Beach. It’s now called White Plains. So, there were the different places we surfed. And I never surfed from here to here, I never surfed anywhere [pointing specific areas on map]. But, over here is the empty lot side, and there’s a bunch of different breaks. And the very end is the Ewa Beach park. Puuloa and Iroquois Point. But empty lots, and this area there’s a whole bunch of places to surf, but I really only surfed over here. I surfed on this side when I was 7th grade, 8th grade, with my friend Timmy. But I figured, we go all the way over here, we’d have to take our bicycles and chain it up to the fence, and we don’t live over there so when I go over here, I get fresh water, I can shower off. I can leave my clothes and change, so even though it seemed further, to me it took over as far as surfing. And to me, the waves are really nice on this side. I’m probably gonna miss, when they develop this, I’m gonna miss the emptiness that it has right now. ’Cause it’s never been quite as empty as it’s been in the last decade. Over here is pretty bad [pointing on map]. But it’s gonna move as they start opening this part up, it’s gonna move down ’cause there’s just more places to surf. This side, if they make the marina, that would be a huge thing. But if they don’t make the marina it’s not gonna affect the ocean. The land was never ours anyway. This was, that wasn’t, so when we went in here we were trespassing. So, to me it doesn’t affect me. But it affects me that there’s so many cars. In 1976 I started working at Channel 2. I worked night time. I got off at 9:30pm. When I came home after 9:30, not a single car on the road, not a single car. Nowadays, I don’t think you can be alone anywhere…

LM:  There’s a lot of people.

HA: And the same thing for the freeway. At 10 o’clock at night, that road from Pearl City, as you’re coming this way [west bound], very few cars in that section from Waipahu, down. They didn’t have lights, either on the freeway. So, there’s a lot of people in Hawaii and my concern is I don’t think we can support the volume of people now. This is not the end. They’re talking about more houses up here [pointing on map] and they’re talking about Kakaako, 500 foot towers. We’re gonna be bringing in 98% of our food to support that. I would have loved to see this been kept in agriculture, but that’s not my choice, and I can’t tell them what to do. I just feel sad about it, ’cause this was real prime ag. land, had the hot, hot sun, as long as you water it.

LM:  Yeah…

HA: So, it’ll be interesting. And, I’d like to see that [the Lagoon Project] when it’s done, if they allow outsiders. That would be kinda interesting to see what it looks like, but I can understand if they choose not to let anybody else in. They pay big money for those houses. I just kind of, I get a little upset that, what was once ours, it’s no longer ours. We didn’t own it, we were just using it. We used to get 7 kinds of seaweed in Ewa Beach. And I don’t know what happened. It went from it being right on the ocean shore to having it go about 5 feet in, to having it go waist high, to having it go underwater. And I don’t know if they’re still there.

LM:  Yeah, where’s the limu?

HA: ’Cause, my mom used to make lots of different things. The pickled one, the Japanese style. And she used to, there was one called huluhulu waena, and that one is a real fine kind. And she used to make a nori style, not nori, you could buy it in bottles, sort of a heavier, sweet shoyu flavor, and you could put it on hot rice. And then there had one that looked like, we used to call it cabbage. The leaves were really broad and they were flat, and they were brown, brownish color like ogo, that color. And they had like, you like if you go and you buy spring mix at the store and it has that one leaf that looks like the weed that grows in your yard? I can’t remember what that’s called. When I try to think of names my mind goes blank. But, that’s what it looks like. It has little edges, little scalloped like, and it has a broad leaf. But it has the same taste as other ogo, like manauea and stuff. But it just looks different. Had limu kohu if you were willing to go into the deeper water. Ewa Beach has so much sand, that you spend all of your time trying to clean it. ’Cause you know, the limu kohu is a unique kind, it just gets so full of that sand that you gotta spend to so much time. I think it changes the flavor. Then my uncle like the lipepee, that big, fat green one. Kinda almost as big as this, kinda grows like, kinda has like a feathery, like a mossy kinda exterior. I never liked that one. But, he liked that one. I just converted video that I had of Ted Farm, and he was doing Hawaiian foods. So I’ll try to look and see, ’cause he did mention a couple of kinds of limu that he used to catch. It’s too bad that he’s not around. Nobody knew this area better than he did. Nobody spent as much time, he lived right on that beach from about 1976, ’77 he retired, and he lived there and he fished, he lived off the ocean. And the stayed there until he passed away around 2004. I don’t think anybody knew that ocean better than he did. He knew exactly where to go to get what. And it’s too bad ’cause he was a unique person.

LM: Yeah, a lot of the stories are lost on those who have passed.

HA: Yeah, ’cause even his kids, as much as they know, they didn’t live there every day. And he did. The other guy is Joey. Have you heard of Joe Gaynor? Joey still lives there. Joe and I are elementary school classmates. And Joe married the girl that grew up in that house, the first house, the Francis Ching lot. And he still lives there. And he’s gonna be the last one. Joey has permission to stay there from Haseko. And if anybody knows what’s happen to that ocean. Joey lives in Ocean Pointe, but they still have the beach house. Joey and his wife’s name is Lori, and Lori’s maiden name is Okamura. So, they would be a really good resource. Joey, his brother-in-law John. John goes down to the beach all the time. Joey lives there. He can tell you firsthand about what’s changed. ’Cause he’s been living on that beach with Lori for about 20 years plus. And Joey’s older sister was at one time the vice president of Community Relations at Haseko.

LM:  Ohhh, okay. Yeah, we’ll see.

HA: He might be able to give you stories definitely about what’s happened in this area. ’Cause he goes out in the water almost everyday. He takes out a surfboard and he’ll fish from it. He spends a lot of time. If you go to Facebook, well you’d have to be his friend I think. Oh, did you see that Puuloa Forever Facebook site?

LM: Um… no.

HA: Puuloa Forever, I put it up there. Do you have a Facebook account?

LM:  Umm hum.

HA: I can make you a member of that, ’cause I put this up there primarily to see the stuff I shot of the reunion we had. But there’s been a lot of interesting stuff. Really, the resource to me that has everything is the Swaylocks [blog]. If you can go through everything and see the color.

Mark Ehukai Kwock Sun Yoshio Kahalekulu was born in 1956 along the Honouliuli coast, at Ewa Beach. His kupuna father worked for the Dowsett-Parish Ranch on the Puuloa lands, and lived at various locations between Puuloa, Oneula, and Kualakai. The Kahalekulu line originated in the Hookena-Hoopuloa Region of South Kona, and were displaced by the 1926 Mauna Loa eruption. Mark’s entire young life from toddler through high school was connected to the ocean and nearshore lands of the Honouliuli  Ahupuaa.

During the interview Mark shared his recollection of families, practices, fishing, surfing, and walking the Honouliuli coastal lands. The following topics are among those discussed by Mark:

•  In the early part of the 1900s there weren’t many people out here. Then during the war there was no access to the ocean. After the war the fisheries were very rich. Among the fish were moiawakalapalanimanini (and ohua), amaamaaholeholeopaeheeula, and crabs.
•  Limu was plentiful, with beds two to three feet high on the shore. When in season, you could smell the limu inland of Pohakea Elementary School. Types of limu included lipoakala, and manauea.
•  Parents always instilled in him the responsibility that lawaia had for care of the fishery resources: taking what could be used; not fishing or collecting out of your own area; and sharing.
•  Descriptions of the various reef regions extending from the shore to the deep water at first, second, and third reefs.
•  During his youth he witnessed a significant change in the ocean environment and resources. There were major sewage spills, and people from all over came and took more limu than the papa could restore.
•  Before, the ranch and plantation controlled access along the shoreline, and there were a number of gates that people had to go through to get access. There were no squatters in the early days.

Interviewee Mark Kahalekulu (MK)
Interviewer Leimomi Morgan (LM)
Place Oneula Beach, Mamala Bay, Ewa
Date January 17, 2014
Final transcription completed February 9, 2014

LM:  So, if you want, you can share your whole name, the meaning of your name, and your family connection to Ewa.

MK: My name is Mark Ehukai Kwock Sun Yoshio Kahalekulu. My connection with Ewa is my father and grandfather originally came from Hookena, South Kona. They were paniolo working the ranches in that area during the early part of the 20th Century. I looked up census, and they were listed, my father and my grandfather, in the 1920 census in Hookena.

LM: And what were their names?

MK: Kahalekulu. Raphael Kaihikapuonalani Kahalekulu, that’s my dad. And my grandfather was John Kaihikapuonalani Kahalekulu. And, by the 1930 census, they’re here in Ewa. I always wondered why they moved, and then I was reading a book on the historic volcanic eruptions on the Big Island, and there was a real, real big eruption in 1926, and it started from Mokuaweoweo on Mauna Loa, and it came all the way down and it went all the way down to Hoopuloa, and that’s the name of that flow. That was in 1926, but they showed the extent of the flow, and if this is Hookena here (drawing in the sand), and this is Mauna Loa, the flow came down and all the way to the sea at Hoopuloa, but some of it actually went and diverted above Hookena. So, I can only imagine my family, looking up at night, and seeing the lava just suspended on the mountain above them. I would get out too, I would get out too. So, they came out here [Ewa] and they started working for, as paniolo, for the Kahuā Ranch that was by Barber’s Point. So this was by 1930.

LM:  So your grandfather moved here too?

MK: Yeah, yeah. The stories that I’ve heard, this was way before my time. I was born in 1956, so this was many decades before my time. My father, my grandfather, and my grandmother came and they lived where White Plains, Officers’ beach is now, there’s that stand of ironwood trees on that point right there. That belonged, according to my mother, Leatrice Kam Ing Kulia Chong Kahalekulu, that that belonged to the Shaffer family, and they had lived there before our family came. So, being that my dad worked for the ranch, and my grandfather worked for the ranch, they had gotten permission from the ranch manager, to basically squat on the beach by the ironwood trees. My mother passed away in ’06 [2006]. My dad passed away in 1958 of stomach cancer, but while my mother was still alive, and they had opened up Barber’s Point for the public, I tried taking my mom down there, and asking her, “Mom, where did you folks used to live?” and she would say it was Waianae side of the Shaffers. And when I’d take her to where the ironwood trees are, she goes, “You know, back in the ’30s, didn’t have these big tall stand of trees, they were small.” But it was a marker for them, those ironwood trees, and it still is for everybody. So, I can only imagine that where they actually had, and it was like a shotgun shack, it was like a beach shack. Had plenty room for nets, because my dad and my grandfather were very good fishermen from Hookena. Maybe 10–15 years ago, I went to Hookena for the first time. When I saw the canoes that they had over there, I just totally flashed, ’cause one of my youngest recollections of living in Ewa Beach, was after my father died, my mom still kept his canoe on the side of the house. And it wasn’t a dugout canoe like how you would imagine one normal canoe was, dug out from a tree trunk, it was made out of planks, out of boards. But had an outrigger and it was very narrow. It was, you know, the shape of a canoe, but made out of boards.

LM: And, he [your father] used to use it? He made it?

MK: Yes. And then, at the very, very end, it was squared off, and that’s where they would put an outboard motor on it.

LM:  Ohh, interesting. And they would just take it out?

MK: Yeah. So, when I went to Hookena those few years back, I blew my mind, because, on the beach, it was like, Wow! There was like a dozen of them. And I had never seen um before other than my dad’s. And that was only from when I was a little teeny-weenie kid, like 3, 4, 5 years old, I remember playing on it. So, it was one of those things that showed me that, we were from over there. My family was very, very much into net fishing. So, even after my dad passed away, we still continued that out here [Ewa beach]. My dad was a very, very good fisherman, so he would work for the ranch as paniolo. My sister, see that milo tree there over there [points] that’s my sister’s house.

LM: That one?

MK: Yeah, like two houses away from the right way, that’s my sister’s. Like where that wahine is sitting right there [points].

LM:  Ohh. She lives right there still?

MK: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So, she told me a story, ’cause she’s older than me, she’s 18 years older than me. That’s Yvonne [Leilani Mui Kwai Kahalekulu], Moriguchi is her married name now.

LM: And she was a Kahalekulu, too?

MK: Yeah. So, she had told me a story not too long ago that my grandfather liked to drink. So what he would do, he would get my dad to break horses at Kahua Ranch, because for every horse that you broke, you got 10 dollars. So, he was like 12, 13, 14, and my grandfather would put him on a horse and go make him break the horse, but he [grandfather] would keep the money, so that he could go drink with his friends.

LM:  Ohh… Aue!

MK:  Yeah.

LM:  That was a lot of money! 10 dollars!

MK: That was big money! Yeah, break your neck though, you’re risking your life. So, they would have a lot of drying racks, and even later on, when I came along, we still had these, [points] net, net, net, net, net, net. And it wasn’t that nylon, not string, it was cord. So, even as I grew up, somebody in the family always had to be sewing it, patching it, ’cause we used them all the time. The bottom over here is very, very rough and uneven, so always you gonna have puka. So somebody always gotta be patching that constantly, especially if you have literally miles of net.

LM: Wow.

MK: I remember hearing stories of how much fish over here it used to have. And, there wasn’t that much people over here. I remember, during the war, you couldn’t fish, they closed the beach, and you couldn’t fish. What is that… Martial Law?

LM:  I don’t know.

MK: Yeah, Martial Law. You couldn’t do stuff. You couldn’t have light coming out of your window at night, because they gotta worry about Japanese bombing, and being able to identify what’s happening on the ground. So, even on the ocean, you couldn’t go out and go fish. So, my mom would say that, right after they lifted Martial Law, there was so much fish, because nobody could fish for four years. From 1941–1945, you couldn’t fish out here. So, had fish up the ying-yang.

LM: Wow.

MK: Yeah, but she said, within less than a year, so many people were hitting it, ’cause they hadn’t been able to go all those years, that within a short time, ahh, it was hard to get those big catches of fish again. I remember a story my mother telling, and this is down by Barber’s Point, when they were down there, before we came this [Oneula] side. My dad had located a school of moi, so he went, and with his canoe, he laid the net from the shore, around the school, and it came back to the shore. I can’t even imagine a school this big. And had it almost penned up like cows or something. So, what he would do is, the first day, he would back his truck up to the ocean, and they would use a scoop net, and they would just bring the two ends of the net close to shore so that it would pile the fish right in front of you. And they would just go and get a scoop net and just load up the back of the truck. They would fill up the truck, they would take it down to Chinatown Market downtown, and they would sell um. And I think my mother said, the first day they went do that, they got like 20 cents a pound. They didn’t even dent the school. The next day, my father did the exact same thing, back the truck up, pull the school close, and just start scooping fish into the back of the truck. They took that into Honolulu, they still had fish left over from the day before, so they gave him 10 cents a pound.

LM: Did you guys eat the fish, too?

MK: Ohh, Yeah. And then, the third day, my dad did that one more time, took it into town, they gave him 5 cents a pound. He was so angry, he came home, and he opened up the net and he let all the fish go.

LM: Good [laughing]. So you guys would subsistence fish? You guys would always have fish to eat? It was like a part of your life?

MK: Yeah. And a lot of it was dried. The awa. I know my mother would dry awa. That was her favorite, she loved the belly part of the awa, that was the best. And, because the awa was such a big fish, yeah?

LM:  What would you say was the most numerous fish around here?

MK:  I would think it’s the kala.

LM: The kala?

MK: Yeah, I always call it the official unofficial fish of Ewa Beach, because it’s very easy to find, and very easy to catch. And they get very, very big, and they’re fat, they’re herbivores, so they eat limu. So, especially in the days before, this beach, would have drifts of 2–3 feet high of limu.

LM: Wow.

MK: Yeah, you would be able to smell the limu from Pohakea Elementary School when I used to go over there. Some days, if the wind was onshore and really strong, up to the shopping center and beyond you could smell the limu, it was piled up so high.

LM: Wow. You know what kind it was?

MK: The majority of it was probably the ones that people would call it opala. But you know, now days, there’s no such thing as opala limu now. That’s like, in the old days, palani, and kala even, manini, that was considered “shit” fish. Now, to me, there’s no such thing.

LM: Yeah, you take what you can get now.

MK: Yeah, it’s an oxymoron now. So, opala limu is the same thing. But the drifts would be mostly limu kala, long, long strands of limu kala. Lipoa, jus long, long, long strands of lipoa, and most people didn’t come to harvest that. And people came from all over the island, especially on the weekend. Monday through Friday, not too bad, just the local, the people from Ewa Beach. But on the weekends, Saturday and Sunday, you would have, from all the way down there from the wall, all the way down to Parish Drive, which is the point further up there just beyond those coconut trees is where the Parish family lived. And there would be 2–3 feet all the way, and in the water here, would have limu floating at least, 20–30 feet out. Just thick, thick.

LM:  Wow. What happened to it?

MK: I have a friend that, he went Kamehameha grad ’74 like me, Alan Perry, he works for whatever city department is in charge of the waste treatment plants. So yeah, I talked to him, and I said, “Alan, you think you can…” and before I can even finish my sentence, he goes, “Mark, I know what you goin’ ask me…” And I said, “Okay, what am I gonna ask you?” He goes, “You want me to let the sewage outfall happen, so that the limu comes back to Ewa Beach.” And I said, “How did you know I was gonna ask you that?”

LM: Is that what it was?

MK:  When I was in Kamehameha, I grad ‘74, I was a boarder…

LM: Oh, really? Why were you a boarder? Oh, ’cause it was far?

MK: Any place from Waipahu out, Waianae, Waipahu. Pearl City, you had to be day-student.

LM: Yeah, my mom was day, too.

MK:  Ewa, Waianae, of course, North Shore…

LM:  You guys all boarded…?

MK: We all boarded with the outer islands guys.

LM: Ho, I wish it was still like that! I would have boarded!

MK: Let me tell you, hey, it was awesome. But I remember, when you looked from campus, you looked down, and off of Sand Island, about a mile out, you would see this big, brown V, out in the middle of the blue water. And that was raw sewage, and if I not mistaken, I may be wrong, but I think I remember 11 million gallons of raw sewage a day would go out into that outfall. And all you saw was this big, brown V, and then the current runs, and this is Mamala Bay [points out around us] all the way across, so the current would run from Honolulu, and run along where the airport stay, Pearl Harbor, and then come down to Ewa Beach.

LM:  Wait, what was this bay called?

MK: Mamala.

LM:  This is Mamala?

MK: This is Mamala Bay. From Barber’s Point to Diamond Head. So, to me, that’s why [the limu grew]… it was like fertilizer. That’s what it was.

LM:  Oh and the fishes love it then, and I bet the honu loved it too.

MK:  And to me, that’s why, I like talk to you, because to me, that’s what we have to preserve, if you don’t have the base of the food chain. And to me, it’s limu. And then once you get that, because not only the fish eat the limu, there’s other things like crabs, and shrimps, the opae, they live inside the limu for protection. Now, there’s other fish that may not eat the limu, they’re carnivorous, but they looking for the shrimp and the crab that look for protection. It’s like a forest. So, that’s why I wanted to talk to you about that, I think that we really need to take care of the limu because that’s the basis for Ewa Beach. And, as far as Pearl Harbor being Puuloa, it’s all one big system, including Puuloa. Like you said, that’s where all had the fishponds and all, yeah?

LM: Yeah, my grandma said she would go out and collect limu when she was young, too. It used to grow in the watercress patches, I guess, too.

MK: You know, if you get clean water, whether it be fresh water or salt water, plants will grow. But, that’s why, I would like whatever kind organization, whether it be the state, or whatever, is if you want the fish and everything that goes along with that, you gotta start with the actual papa itself, and make sure that the limu is protected. Another thing, is that, because Puuloa was protected, and because a lot of the drainage, I think every drainage, Pearl Harbor is the drainage for, except for Honouliuli.

LM:  Yeah, it’s all the way out that way.

MK: Yeah, so, all of that comes in, so you get this balance of salt-water/fresh-water, and it just depended on what part of Pearl Harbor you were actually in. And of course, salt-water’s heavier than fresh-water, so even in some parts you gonna have different kind fish, and to me that’s why they had so much fish ponds. Because the species that could handle being penned up like that, the awa, the awaaua, the silver fish, the aholehole, the mullet, the amaama, all of those, they’re brackish water fish. So, to me, a lot of the spawning that happened in Ewa has a lot to do with what’s happening in Pearl Harbor, Puuloa itself. I noticed when I used to go fishing, loaded baby sharks. For me, that’s one example. Loaded baby sharks in the mouth of Pearl Harbor, right outside of Iroquois Point, loaded. Lot of hammerheads, but lot of small sharks, 2, maybe 3 feet. Now, when you come out Ewa Beach Proper, and you start from Iroquois, the Rifle Range, Ewa Beach Park, just go close right here, you would see bigger and bigger and bigger sharks. So, this is my theory, is that they’ll start off at like, Puuloa is like a nursery for a lot of species, and as they got bigger, they would come out, and now you get all of this limu-grinds, that herbivore fish would definitely need. Other fish that were carnivorous, they would find the other smaller animals that lived among the limu. And as you went further and further this way [westerly], you’d almost see a growth within a species. So, that by the time you got down to Barber’s Point, ho, they’re big. You going see the biggest sharks, you going see the biggest enenue, you going see all the big, large adults, the mature adults, over there [Barber’s Point]. And I’m sure that they go back, looking for places that they wanna spawn and lay their eggs, or have their young. So, to me, this shallowness and the outside reefs out there, it’s not like Big Island where, it’s like, right from the shore, boom, the water just deep.

LM: Yeah, this is an old island.

MK: Yeah! It’s an older island. The fish have got plenty, plenty places, the sand pockets, the reef, the rubble, there’s so many places that the animals can come in and lay their eggs and raise their young in a protected kind of area. Of course, you still gonna have, the further out you go, you gonna have the bigger, larger fish. But now, I spoiled, I dive Big Island a lot, and it’s just like, wow, look at this place, the clarity of the water and everything. And that’s another thing, because the clarity of the water is generally dirty, maybe that’s not a real good word, but it’s not clear because of the runoff and infect water from Pearl Harbor. Once it comes out of the mouth, the current catches it, and brings it along this coast, and it just goes right along this way. The only time that it changes, and that’s what I was looking for today, is when the winds blow from the north. When the winds blow from the north, it blows all the dirty, unclear water straight out to sea, and this area [Ewa Beach] becomes…

LM: All clear?

MK: Yeah! It looks like Hauula or Punaluu or something, which it never does.

LM:  How often does that happen? Hardly ever?

MK:  Very rarely.

LM:  Yeah.

MK:  You know when you feel the really really cold morning?

LM:  Yeah. We feel it Mililani, too.

MK: That’s the days to come! That’s when you wanna go diving over here. Because with the nets, you don’t need crystal clear water to lay a net. But for diving, you need it.

LM:  Yeah…

MK:  Yeah, your boyfriend you said he’s a big diver, ah.

LM:  Yeah.

MK: One thing that we have to play with, you could have nice water and everything, but if there was a lot of limu in the water, you didn’t lay a net, ’cause your net just would be full of limu. So, that’s what you waited for, you waited for the days when had little limu, and still yet, you still going get limu. So, you laid your net, like you could see, it’s kinda light colored about maybe 30, 40, 50 yards out, and then it goes all the way out to that darker area further out, that’s the first reef. It runs parallel, it runs almost from like, pretty much from Ewa Beach Road all the way out here, and you can see the little white caps out there. It starts off over here as really shallow, 2, 3 feet, and then where it gets to be that lighter color, it’s sand and rock. Almost looks like a parking lot, it’s flat, not much limu, and then once you get out to where that darker area is, it’ll come out maybe from 10 feet deep, it’ll come to maybe 5–6 feet deep on a low tide. And then, that reef is maybe only 50–100 yards wide, and then it drops off again into deep, deep sand. And that’s probably about 50 feet deep. On other days, like in summer time when there’s a south swell, you’ll see another set of breakers further out than these ones that you see here, that’s the second reef. And that one is probably about a half mile out, the first reef is about a quarter mile out. Then you get that deep sand that will come to maybe about, on a low tide, to maybe 12–25 feet deep, that second reef. But it’s, ho, the fish out there. They run in parallel bands, so the first reef runs about a quarter mile, and it runs all the way down, goes. And even like the shark country, where the surfers are, I used to surf too, that’s part of the first reef. And then the second reef, it goes, and then it kinda ends about, well it goes actually through Barber’s Point, and even through like where the jetty is, maybe like by where Barber’s Point is, it’ll actually start, it’s not so defined. ’Cause really, it’ll do this, it’ll be shallow, deep, shallow, deep, shallow, deep, and it goes on. I been out to the third reef, but that’s as far as I’ve gone. And I wouldn’t doubt that there’s reefs even further out. Especially like in past millennium, where the sea level fluctuates, there may be reefs that was in shallower water, long time ago, but the reef is still there.

LM:  So, how did you first get into spear fishing? It is spear fishing, right?

MK: I worked for United Airlines after I graduated high school, ’74, and in ’81 there was an air traffic controllers’ strike, and Ronald Reagan was president at the time, and he fired all the striking air traffic controllers. So what that did was, is that airlines couldn’t expand, in fact they had to cut their flights because there’s less ability to control um. You know, air traffic controllers, they gotta follow the airplane, tell um turn left, turn right, go to this altitude. Because of that, United had to lay off a lot of us, throughout the whole system. So, there’s a bunch of guys that I know, that I work with now, that we all got laid off in ’81. And, I didn’t get my job back until ’84. I didn’t wanna work a straight job. I load and unload airplanes at the airport, and it’s kind of a, it’s outdoors, and you’re not stuck in a cubicle. You’re not in an office, you’re not behind a computer screen. You’re outside, you’re doing stuff. It suited me. So, I didn’t wanna work a straight job, I’ll say it like that. So, after my unemployment ran out, I had heard all these stories about my dad, and how he was master fisherman. And our kuleana was the mouth of Pearl Harbor to Barber’s Point. And, later on when I tried diving other places, ho, my mother would scold me, “Boy, that’s somebody else’s fish. Why you need to go anyplace else, this is our kuleana.”

LM:  I like that manao.

MK: Yeah, don’t hana ino other peoples’, you know, their area, that’s for them. So, I told myself, “Okay, I am gonna learn from the mouth of Pearl Harbor, all the way to Barber’s Point.” And, I did it for 3 ½ years, almost 4 years. And, I had heard stories when I was young that my father died when I was a year and 9 months, not two years old, of stomach cancer. But when I was born, my father had wanted to show me all these spots, and some secret spots. And, after he died, I felt like, wow, I kinda, I lose a big part of my heritage, my legacy. That was supposed to be mine. So, when I got laid off, I said, you know what, “It’s still here! It’s not like it ran away. It’s still here!” So, whenever the winds would turn cold, I’d be out here. You know, this is like punching in, this is where I work. And, just depending on what area was the cleanest, and what area maybe I never go for a while, and I would pick and choose different areas, but a lot of it was, not just looking for the fish, or well, I would look for fish and hee and lobster, and limu, too. And I would take my catch up to Waipahu, and I would sell it at the markets over there. Mostly it was Yama’s, at Westgate Shopping Center, they bought everything I brought.

LM: Wait, in Waipahu?

MK:  Yeah.

LM:  Yeah, I been there.

MK:  Oh, yeah?

LM: Yeah, the fish market. My boyfriend actually took me there.

MK: Oh, yeah? Is it still there?

LM:  Yeah.

MK: I’ll be darned. Like I said, Yama helped me out plenty, because he would buy, whatever I got was, kala, palani, whatever.

LM:  I’m not sure if it’s still called the same thing, but, there’s that fish market in Waipahu.

MK:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m kinda shocked to hear that it’s still there.

LM:  Yeah.

MK: So, that’s what I did, and what I’d try to do is make a mental map of how this place looked if the water was clean. And, lotta times, you know, say you get like maybe only one day the water clean, and then the wind will switch, and it’ll go back to being dirty. Hate to use that word, but not clear.

LM:  Yeah.

MK: And, so, those days, a lot of times, even though I’m trying to get fish, or whatever, I’m trying to remember everything, so that one day I could pass it on. And that’s what I’m trying to do now with my grandson, is to let him know where everything is.

LM: So you kinda had to like, go and discover it yourself from just the stories of hearing your dad?

MK:  Yeah.

LM:  That’s good.

MK: As Hawaiians, we hear all these stories about our alii from long time ago, and sometimes it’s almost like not real, or they’re just stories.

LM: We’re so far removed from it now days.

MK:  Yeah…

LM: But it wasn’t even that long ago.

MK:  No.

LM: Your dad! Your dad’s generation.

MK:  Yeah. So I said, you know…

LM: If they could do it, you could do it.

MK: That’s right. And that’s what I did. And what I would do is, I surfed a lot before, that’s why I had all my surfboards and stuff, so what I would do is I would get two guns, I carried a hinge and a three prong, and I would put that on the front of my board. I would have a floater and a lead and a rope, and I would also wear a leg rope on my leg, so that way, if I’m way outside there, and I run into something that I don’t wanna be in the water with, I just jump on my board, and it was protection.

LM:  That’s good.

MK: Yeah, and if I went out to the second reef, I’d put two leg ropes together so that I could reach the bottom in 20, 25 feet of water. And just depending on where I was gonna go, that’s how much, I knew I had to have that much rope. So, lotta times, people would come down and they would see my surfboard floating outside, they’d think that’s like one abandoned surfboard. ’Til they see me climb on top and paddle, oh, where’d that board go? I started in ’81, and then I got my job back in ’84, and I told myself, the ocean, Ewa would take care of me for almost four years, and that’s all I did. And, even though I didn’t make a lot of money, I fed my family with the fish that we got, and I barely had two nickels to rub together, but that was one of the riches times of my life.

LM:  Hum. Interesting?

MK: Hoo, I always look back to that so, so fondly.

LM: Like free…

MK: And you know what, I learned the value of a dollar. I know how hard I had to work to get a dollar. And everything was real, crystal clear. And like now days, it’s different now, I live differently. But, that four years really, really taught me a lot.

LM: So, where were you living? Maybe if you could just go back and say where you lived and everything? I know you were explaining on the way here.

MK: Next to the church, yeah, there’s actually some property over there.

LM:  Yeah…

MK: My mom and dad, after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, they were still squatting down by the Shaffers down by the ironwood trees. And, my dad is pure Hawaiian and my mother is ¾ Chinese and ¼ Hawaiian. Her father, my Goong-Goong, was Kong Chong, he was half-Hawaiian, but he didn’t look it. His father came from China in the 18…, my grandfather was born in 1880, he was born on Kekaha in Kauai. I don’t have any documentation on it, but I’m wondering if that’s where they first worked as far as plantation…

LM: Yeah, they had the sugar plantations. Yeah, my grandpa’s side is the Chong, too, and they were from Kauai, too! It was like, Ah-Chiong, though, and I guess like when they came here they just shortened it to Chong. But he was born in Koloa, Kauai.

MK:  Koloa, is the south side, yeah?

LM: Yeah, and his dad was from China, too. And the mom was pure Hawaiian.

Yeah, his father, so my great-grandfather.

MK: Okay, my great-grandfather was pure Chinese, born in China. That’s Chong Ayau, and then he ends up by the turn of the century on Molokai, and what they did was, he married a pure Hawaiian woman from Halawa. And, he opened up a poi shop in Kaunakakai. To this day, my family still makes Molokai poi over there, the Chong family on Molokai.

LM: Oh, wow! So, wait, what was his name again?

MK: Chong, Ayau, that’s my great-grandfather.

LM: And he was the full Chinese from China?

MK: Yep, he was the one who came from China.

LM: And he married…

MK: A pure Hawaiian.

LM: From Molokai…

MK:  And her name was Kanakaole. Her family name was Kanakaole.

LM:  Oh, interesting.

MK: Yeah, and so to me, I understand that that’s where originally the poi, the taro, the kalo was coming from, was from Halawa. And they used to bring it over on mules, mule train to Kaunakakai. He would make the poi there. He had a machine that did the grinding of the taro. So, even when I was young, on Easter vacation, or on Thanksgiving, lotta times we would go to Molokai and we would stay with my mom’s cousin. My great-grandfather had two sons, and one son’s son stayed on Molokai. That’s Fook-ana, we called him Fook-ana, Uncle Fook-ana. And, all the boys was all Fook for that generation. Fook-wah, Fook-sun. My generation is Kwock, so that’s where I get Kwock-Sun from.

LM: Ohh…

MK: So, we used to go there, and he would make poi every other day. But by the time, this is probably late ’60s, the taro came from Maui. So we would have to go with his flatbed truck and go to the Kaunakakai Wharf, and pick up big burlap bags of taro, take um back to the house. His poi factory was a shack that was divided in two, one was to actually puree, mash the cooked taro, and the other half was to cook the raw taro. So, what he had, it was a real, real old machinery. I cannot tell you how old this stuff was, even in the ’60s. You filled this big pan with water, this metal pan, and then get kiawe trees all around his property, so you got his kiawe, and you made this fire under this big, huge pan of water. And then you brought all the taro, bags and all, you unloaded the truck and you put it into this room. The room wasn’t very big, maybe about 10 by 10, but you filled it all the way up with taro. And then, we had boards that you closed up this room, and then there was 55 gallon drums of rags. And, you got rags, and you take it your fingers, and you fill all the cracks in between the boards because you no more door, you just have one open wall.

LM:  That’s how they steamed it?

MK: Yeah. So, to make easy to bring the taro in, there was no wall, so you just unload real easy, just stack, stack. And then, you got boards, and you fitted the boards, there was like one space in between a post, so you get your board, and you make like that, and you get your next one, next one, next one, all the way up.

LM:  Ohh, I see. So smart!

MK: But, get small cracks, and cannot have no cracks, it’s gotta be like a giant pressure cooker, steamer. So you got all these rags, and that was us as small kids, our job was to make sure we got um filled up all the cracks with rags. So, he did that the night before. The next morning, you would get up and, my cousins would be peeling the taro, so that’s what we did, we would help peel taro. And then, he would feed it into the hopper of another really, really old machine, and then that would grind up the taro, and on the other end, would come out poi. So, he would be on the other end, and he would have an old scale, you know the kind that hangs up from above, with a big round face like a clock. So, he had it wired as the poi would come out, and it was hot, he would scoop it up with his hand, and he would put it into the bag, put ’um on the scale, one pound. Perfect. He did it forever. So I remember, couple times, he goes, “Mark, you go make. Take your turn.” So I make. Hey, not only I cannot get it into the bag clean, stuck poi all over my hand, all over the end of the bag, it was awful. Oh, little bit too much, I gotta take out. Ah, little big too little, I gotta add. It was really goofy, I wasn’t good at that at all. And, he was a good fisherman on Molokai too. But going back to over here [Ewa], my dad, there was a story about when people just started living out here. It was mostly, it was all dirt roads. This area [Mamala Bay] was mostly beach cottages for weekends for people that lived in Honolulu, and there wasn’t that many people that actually lived out here, full time.

LM:  Yeah, very small community?

MK:  Yeah.

LM: But you guys were out here full time?

MK: Yeah. So, when they actually started squatting, the deal was, is that, you could squat, but when you guys go, there’s all these gates to get to the main road, the Waianae Road. So, when you would drive your vehicle up to a gate, then somebody would have to get out, and then open the gate, then you go forward, and you gotta go through and close the gate. I think there was something like 20 or 30 gates that you had to get through before you got to the Waianae Road, the one that goes like that. And, people started coming out here, I can only imagine, they had this place all to themselves for a while, but then, Filipinos, other immigrant groups, because they were leaving the plantation, too, like how the Chinese did. So now, because Ewa Plantation is right here, some Filipinos started moving to Ewa Beach and buying places, and they started fishing. So, my story was, that this is Barber’s Point. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Barber’s Point, they get one jetty that goes out.

LM:  Yeah, I been there.

MK: Okay, off of that jetty, about maybe quarter mile out, about first reef distance, there’s a reef that the waves come in from three sides. Comes in straight, and then comes from two sides, like this. And when the three waves come together on the shallow reef, I’ve dove there, I mean you don’t wanna be there. It’ll screw you up big time if you’re not careful. So, what the story was that my dad started off at by where the Shaffers is, the ironwood trees, and he was gonna lay his net on the outside reefs, probably first, maybe second reef, I’m not sure. But, he noticed that there was another boat that was following him, so when he would drive, he’d see this thing driving, so he’d stop his motor, and then they would stop their motor. So, he’d start his motor again, and he goes to the next reef, and ho, these guys, they stopped their motor. So, in other words, they’re trying to find out where his spots were. So, what he did was, is he just kept on going from reef to reef, and then, they would come, so they’re always like one reef behind. So, he got to this, some people call that reef “cross-waters.” But that’s Swabbyland, that’s the surf spot at Swabbyland.

LM: Ohh.

MK:  So, he got his boat, he went, went, went, went, went, and he knows that if he stops, they goin’ stop. So, he waited till they were right over that reef, and turned off his motor. So now they turned off their motor, now so they’re sitting ducks.

LM:  Oh, no.

MK: So he waited, and sure enough, one swell, the wave came in, it did that triple-up thing, capsized their boat, so he turned around, and he went go rescue them.

LM:  [laughing]

MK: A lot of the cowboys, my mother would say, ’cause they didn’t use dry boxes, ’cause they had so much fish, a lot of times they would just go dry fish, and then hang it on a clothesline like clothes between the ironwood trees. So the cowboys, my mother said, they on horseback, and they wouldn’t even get off their horse, because the line is like right by their [head]…

LM:  They would just grab the fish?

MK: Yeah, they just go. But, my mother said, you know what was real pretty, was that they would have a, inside their hat, they would have chili pepper, and they would stick, you know like a, you bust one small end of a chili pepper bush, and maybe the thing get like 4, 5, you know, some is red, some is green, some is half-half. So, they would stick it inside their hat almost like one lei or decoration, you know, for them. But…

LM: Aww, cool. They would use it to eat.

MK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, when it came for lunch time, they had it.

LM:  Aww, smart!

MK: And, my mother used to say that every once in a while, the small baby manini would come in, certain times of the year. And you know, I’ve looked for that, that occurrence, and, I cannot say I’ve ever really seen that. But she says, every year, certain times of the year, and they would be about as big as a postage stamp, and you know like when you get like a tide pool, the buggahs just full inside. ’Cause they would come in with the tide. And then when the tide went out, they would be all inside the tide pool all low tide.

LM:  Ohh… wow.

MK: So, my grandmother, Tutu-Lady, she would have an apron. She would use the apron to scoop up the baby manini, and almost like one net. And then she would put that in a bowl, and the big manini, too. And, even that’s how, my mom said, ’cause she was raised Chinese style, and to live with Hawaiians was real different from what she was used to. So, her mother-in-law, she kinda tripped out on her mother-in-law, my grandmother.

LM:  And she was the Chinese?

MK:  No, she was Hawaiian, too.

LM:  Your grandmother?

MK:  Yeah…

LM: What was her name?

MK:  You know, that’s a whole ’nother story. ’Cause, I actually have, I guess my family would say, we have two grandmothers.  They were sisters.  One was married to John Kaihikapuonalani Kahalekulu.

LM:  That was your grandfather…?

MK: That was my grandfather. His wife’s sister came and lived with them. She got hāpai.

LM:  From him?

MK: He said, that’s his. That man… my dad.

LM: Ohh, wow, scandalous!

MK:  I know.

LM: So like, but back then, everyone was like, hanai, so then you have two moms. So your dad had two moms. They would look at it as, ho you lucky you have two moms. Poolua they called it.

MK: I know, I know. So true, so true. Poolua. So, like my family, ho, they don’t like that Poolua theory. They don’t like that at all, because to them, it’s like, for one thing it is scandal. And second, how can you have two mothers. So, that’s old style thinking.

LM:  Yeah, it’s Hawaiian.

MK: Like Kamehameha had Keoua and Kahekili, they had Poolua. So, that’s something that’s gotta be sorted out, and as far as the family, some guys think one way, and some guys think another. And, there’s other people, like my sister, who has her own theory, that it wasn’t Kahalekulu, John Kahalekulu was the father. It was a Portuguese man. So, there’s the Portagee-man theory, too, in my family!

LM: Wow.

MK:  I know. And to me it’s just like, and you now, it’s very divisive, it’s very divisive.

LM:  Yeah, you never know…

MK:  Yeah.

LM:  You could put anything on your birth certificate too, yeah?

MK: And, in the old days, maybe that didn’t matter. But now days, say you get your kid in Kamehameha, they not going go with this Poolua or anonymous- Portagee-man theory.

LM:  [laughing]

MK: They want, who was your grandfather. So, that’s how that works. But my Tutu-Lady, [Emily Kailiponi] who raised my dad…

LM: So she was…

MK: She was John Kahalekulu’s married wife.

LM:  Ohh, okay.

MK: Yeah, not the sister. The sister, actually she lived with John Kahalekulu and her name was Philomena [Kailiponi]. You know they get one, like where that slide park is as you going towards Waianae. That used to be one quarry before. And my dad’s biological mother [Philomena], and her husband [Keku], the husband actually was the watchman for that quarry. So, he [my father] had his biological mother close, and his hanai mother with him. So, this [Tutu-Lady] was his hanai mother. So, she would go and catch all these small, little baby manini, and you know, maybe that’s bad now days ’cause you wiping out the babies, yeah? You should at least let ’um grow big, yeah? But in those days, that’s how they ate. So, she would use the limu kala, just the tips, because the whole limu kala is real hard and spikey. [Goes and grabs some limu kala from the shore.] So, some of this [limu kala], they would just use the soft, soft end. Because, as you can feel, the inside part is kinda hard, and you feel this part here, you don’t wanna eat that.

LM:  Yeah, this is soft though.

MK:  But, the very, very end, and she would just pick this off, and that’s what she would put on top of this bowl of those baby fish, and then use hot water…

LM: And pour it?

MK:  Yeah, and that would make one soup, and one broth.

LM:  That sounds good!

MK: I know! My mother used to say, “I used to think, coming from one Chinese family, I was so weird.” But you know, she look at me and she goes, “But it was ono.”

LM:  [laughing]

MK: “I learned to eat that from my mother-in-law, and to this day, I love that.” [Quoting his mother] So, that’s why I used to go look for that, for her, but I never found that. But what my grandmother would also do, was that she would go get manini, and she would broil the manini, and do the same thing. Put the broiled manini inside a bowl, and then put limu on top and kinda dress it up, and then use the hot water and then make a fast fish soup. So, I could do that, I could go get manini for my mom, and my mom would do that. So, when you think about it, I don’t really know very, very much about my family’s history as far as when they first came, and all I have is secondhand stories from before.

LM: Well, you grew up here, too, so you have memories of your childhood. So, how many siblings do you have?

MK:  I have my sister and a brother, there was just three of us.

LM: What are their names?

MK:  This is Yvonne [points to the house close to us].

LM:  And her married name is…?

MK: Moriguchi.

LM: Moriguchi.

MK: And then my brother [Raphael Kaleikoa Kwock Sing], he’s two years younger than my sister. So, I think she was born 1940, and I think he was born 1942. And then me, I’m 16 years after my brother, and I was born in ’56, so, no actually, he would be born 1940, my sister would have been born late 1930s, 1938, something like that. So, when I was young, my father had already passed away at ’58. What they did was after World War II, they were squatting down at Barber’s Point. My mother’s birthday is December 7th, she saw Pearl Harbor get bombed on her birthday. You could never celebrate her birthday, ever. Like she would say, “It was such a sad day.” But, because she was Chinese and my father was Hawaiian, they squatted, and my mother told him, “Old Man, we have to buy our own place.” And when you think about it, it’s kinda Hawaiian for him to think like this, but he goes, “Why buy something that’s free?” He was in favor of jus squatting. But my mother goes, “No, no, no, we gotta buy one place.” So after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, a lot of people that owned these properties, here, most of um was along this shore. They wanted to sell and get on the first boat to California, because they thought the Japanese was going to invade.

LM:  I see.

MK: You know, they just bombed Pearl Harbor, this [Mamala Bay] is so shallow, this would be perfect for the Japanese to invade. They [my parents] went and bought next to that church, the bought one lot, and it was three hundred dollars.

LM:  What did your parents do? Oh, the paniolo.

MK: My dad first came over as paniolo, but by the war time, he had gotten a job, him and his dad, his dad first, and then he followed. They were custodians at Ewa School.

LM: Right.

MK: So that was their straight job. And, after paniolo, you don’t wanna do that for very long, really hard on your body. So, he would fish and then work at the school. And then when my mom moved down here…

LM:  Three hundred dollars!

MK: I know, but that was big money that time!

LM: No, yeah, yeah.

MK: So, my mother came down, and eventually she got a job at Ewa School as a custodian. And, later on they moved to other schools, but they usually worked together, McKinley, Stevenson Intermediate down by Roosevelt, Roosevelt High School, too. But they were custodians. That’s why, to me, I’m a very big proponent of education because my mother was. She sent me to Kamehameha, sent my brother to St. Louis, sent my sister to Mid-Pacific. How many toilets she had to scrub to send us to those schools, you know? So, to me, it was like, “Wow!” That’s how much she valued education, she only went up to the 6th grade. And because she had 13 brothers and sisters, when she got to 6th grade, her mother pulled her out of school and said, “Nuff school, you help at home.” And, the boys went on to University of Hawaii, but her only to 6th grade.

LM: The girls are gonna get married anyway, and have babies…

MK: So it’s like, ho, lose money, ah? But, I don’t like that way of thinking, but that was them.

LM: That was that time.

MK: Yeah. So, when they bought that property next to the church, it was all kiawe, so they cleared it, they busted their ass, lived in a tent. But after they had cleared the land, one of the regular residents of Ewa, that was here before us, said, “Do you know a certain family?” And, I think now, that might have been Dowsett, but I don’t have no proof. But my mother said that she asked, “Why?” [And he/she answered:] “Because you just cleared their land.” They [my parents] said, “No, no, no, we bought.” They said, “You bought the piece next to it.” But it’s all kiawe.

LM:  Yeah, how you supposed to know?!

MK: How you supposed to know? So my mother and father were crushed, because they had busted their ass to clear, you know how Hau Bush looks.

LM:  Yeah, that’s tough.

MK: So my mother said, “You know what Old Man, you gotta go talk to this lady.” So they went up there, and she says it was one house up in Nuuanu Valley, and it was one old haole-looking lady, and they asked if she’d be willing to sell the one that they wen’ clear. And she said, “You know, I wanted to save that for my family, but nobody want it because it’s so far out in the boonies, out in the sticks, Ewa Beach.” But she goes, “You folks, you young, I’ll sell it to you folks because you guys, you guys are gonna make better use of this opportunity than my own family.” So, she sold it to them. So, they ended up with two pieces. So, while the other one, which was the original one that they bought, still had kiawe tree, they had this one cleared, and they lived in like one army tent my mom says, until my dad could clear the other side, the original one, and put up a house. He eventually put up three houses on those two lots, and at the time you could do that. So one was a three-bedroom house. He originally built one two-bedroom house I think, and then next to it he build one one-bedroom house for his mother.

LM:  Aww, okay.

MK: And then later on he went and built a three-bedroom house. When I grew up, my mother had those houses.  But they were built like a little after the war time, right around the ’40s. So that’s where we originally lived was next to that church. The church wasn’t there yet. That was actually my father’s brother’s house. And the church bought from my uncle, that was Uncle [Abraham] Apela, my dad’s brother, his half-brother. His hanai mother’s son, his half-brother. So, he sold it to the Baptist church, about the early ’60s, I only remember little while, about the time I was in second grade it was a church, but they used my uncle’s house as the church for many years.

LM: Oh, wow, interesting, huh.

MK: So, we lived there when my mother was just widowed, and she lived in that one bedroom house, and she rented out the two- and the three-bedroom, and that’s how she made money. Because other than that, after my father died, my mom said that for social security for my father dying, she got $64 a month, and that’s what she had to live for, she and I to live on.

LM:  Wow!

MK: You know, I tell you, I didn’t know we were poor, ’cause we had a lotta love and always had food on our table. So, I didn’t realize that until I went to Kamehameha, and then I saw what other kids had.

LM: When did you get in?

MK:  ’69, in 7th grade.

LM: Yeah, I got in 7th grade, too.

MK: Yeah! Yeah, otherwise I went Pohakea over here. So, when I was about 5, that house that’s right at the T right here [points], that belonged to my Uncle Peter Chong, and he lived in Kalihi with my Goong Goong and my Popo, kinda took care of them.

LM: Peter Chong. Then who was the Goong Goong?

MK: That was Kong Chong, or Chong, Kong, with the last name first, ah.

LM: My grandpa, the Chongs, they grew up in Kalihi, too. On Pohaku Street.

MK: They were right off of King Street, like where Queen’s Market. There’s a supermarket over there, right off the Kalihi Shopping Center, there’s Kalihi Stream. In fact, before they moved over there, they actually lived on the stream next door to Hiram Fong the senator, Hiram Fong’s family. So my family and their family, not now, but they were close long time ago. Yeah, when everybody was broke! [laughing]

LM:  Yeah, anyways! [laughing] So, Peter Chong…

MK: Yeah, we moved when I was about 5, so early ’60s, we moved to over here, this is Oneula Place. And then, we lived there. And that’s why this beach is very, very near and dear to my heart, ’cause as long as I can remember…

LM:  Mamala Bay.

MK: Yeah, Mamala Bay. And then, around the corner, and we can go take a look at that after we leave. As you come out of this Oneula Place, to the right about 3 houses is my aunt, another sister of my mother. When my mother them came down here, all our family was Kalihi, and she was the first to marry Hawaiian. So, she was ostracized by my Popo.

LM: Ohh.

MK: Yeah, that was bad! Marry Hawaiian. But, once her sisters, and she had eleven sisters, ten sisters. Once she married Hawaiian, oh, it was like, “Oh, now it’s okay for us to marry Hawaiian!” So, they married Hawaiian, and now they started, it was always every weekend, after pau work, they would all drive from town, and they would all come down, and they would all hang out in Ewa. And then, Sunday night, they would all pack up, they all go back to town, they all gotta go work. So, eventually, as places started opening up, they started buying places over here, too. So it was nice.

LM:  Ohh, it’s like a Kahalekulu and a Chong… that’s so funny.

MK: Yeah! But it was this strip right here, kinda like from that point to that point. This was our playground, our living room…

LM:  And your sister lives right on the beach?

MK: Yeah.  What happened was is that, about middle ’80s, after I got back with United, it used to be, these four houses that was right next to the right-a-way [right-of-way] was one lot and it belonged to a family called the Youngs. And, it was their beach house. And they would come on the weekends. And then, there were two twin boys, and I think they went to like Iolani or Punahou. And they got into a business deal, and they asked the parents if they could use that lot as collateral for that business. They business collapsed, the bank took that property.

LM:  Ohh, wow.

MK: My sister was living in Waipahu at the time. And when she heard, that this lot, what they were gonna do is cut it in half. So it was one big lot, [drawing in the sand] so now, they went cut it in half, here’s the right-a-way [right-of-way], and so it’s two house lots, two house lots [in four pieces]. So, all the bank wanted is their money. They made an auction, and I think my sister bought that thing for maybe a little over a quarter-mil, two-fifty, something like that for two lots, right on the beach.

LM: Wow, she bought two of them?

MK: Yeah, she bought one half of this, but her half is two lots. So, she eventually put up a big two-story house on the front, on the beach side. And then she has a two- or three-bedroom rental on the street side.

LM: Wow, and she still lives there?

MK:  She still lives there. She’s retired from the post office, her and her husband.

LM: Good.

MK: So, after we lived here, around the corner you come out of Oneula onto Pohakupuna Road, I have another aunty that’s over there. Her children still live there, in fact, my uncle that my aunt married, he’s a Richardson from Lanai. The Richardsons and the Kaopuikis, who raised Kepa, are related by marriage.

LM:  Ohh, I know some Kaopuikis from Lanai.

MK:  Ohh, on Lanai?

LM:  Yeah, from Lanai, yeah.

MK: Oh, okay, okay. And you remember, I don’t know if he was there when you were there, but there was a bus driver, his name was Jerry. Jerry Kaopuiki at Kamehameha School.

LM:  Oh, I don’t know…

MK: He might be after you. I mean, you might be after him.

LM:  Yeah, maybe, I don’t know, probably.

MK: But, as me, going to school in the ’70s, I knew he was family by marriage, twice removed. [laughing]

LM:  [laughing]

MK: That’s why, when Kepa told me he was raised by the Kaopuiki I said, “You’re kidding!” So I started rapping off some names, and he goes, “Now, how are you related to those guys?” And I said, “You know, Kepa, you get relatives you know, you get ohana over here right on Pohakupuna Road.”

LM: Ohh.

MK: My aunty lived over there. Next to her, in the middle ’60s, you know ’64, ’65, had a Filipino guy and he wanted to sell his house. My cousin was gonna buy that house, and she used to work at Woolworth’s when used to have a Woolworth’s over here.

LM:  I remember… well my mom told me about that.

MK:  The Woolworth’s?

LM:  That it was like the only store…

MK: Yeah, yeah! My cousin worked at, what they call that when they have one, ah, you get soda…

LM: Ohh, a fountain?

MK: Yes, yes! A fountain! So, she was gonna buy that house next to her mother, but my mom asked if she could buy it. And, at first it was like, you know, you get $64 a month for social security, how you going buy this? Even though it was only $13,000 at the time.

LM:  Oh, wow.

MK: That’s what they sold it for. So, my mom, using the property that she got as collateral, she was able to buy that other house. That’s the house that I grew up in.

LM: Wait, which one was that again?

MK: This was the one on Pohakupuna Road, you haven’t seen it yet. And now, it’s just an empty lot. My mom bull-dozed down that thing in like the middle ’90s because it was just too old.

LM:  And now you still have that property?

MK: I still own that. And, in fact, after I talk to you, I gotta talk to a realtor, I gotta go talk to a realtor.

LM: Don’t sell it!

MK:  That’s what I’m thinking of doing.

LM: Aww, no! We always just say, don’t ever sell, don’t ever sell! ’Cause, all the Hawaiians are just getting pushed out…

MK:  I know, I know. You know, my father was from the Big Island, and even though I get my daughter, son-in-law, I get two grandsons over here, I get family over here, I enjoy the Big Island. I enjoy going to the Big Island.

LM:  But there’s so much land there!

MK:  I know, I know.

LM:  And it’s getting bigger! [laughing]

MK: You never meet my daughter. My daughter is, oh boy. She grad UH with a degree in economics.

LM: Ohh, wow. That’s the one married to, Eric?

MK: Yes, to Eric.

LM: What was his last name?

MK: Rhode.

LM:  Oh.

MK: So, my daughter is trying, ’cause right now, it’s an empty lot, and as far as I’ve been explained, to get the financing, to put up a house, I would have to rent it out. I wouldn’t see any return for many years, I would just be paying it basically for up to ten years before I see any return on it.

LM: That’s not that long! [laughing] Nah, it’s your money, it’s your house, it’s your land, I don’t know.

MK: But I still have that other house that’s next to the church.

LM: Oh I see, and you rent it out?

MK:  Yeah, I rent it out.

LM:  Oh.

MK:  So, it’s not like I would be devoid of anything.

LM:  Too bad you couldn’t like hang on to it and save it for grandkids…

MK: You know, after I started talking to Kepa, and that’s what it’s gonna go down to. My daughter’s gonna get it. All of this, whatever I have, even if I sell this lot here, and get something on the Big Island.

LM:  So you just have one daughter?

MK: Yep. So, it’ll all devolve onto her eventually. But she was saying, “You know Dad, you go to the Big Island anyway, and you prefer over there.” And I do. Even though I get grandkids, very rarely you see me on Oahu. I’m always on the Big Island if I can.

LM:  Oh. What side, you like Kona side?

MK: I like Kona side. But, right now, I’m kinda looking at Honokaa.

LM:  Oh yeah, it’s really nice there.

MK:  Yeah.

LM: In the middle kinda.

MK: What do you mean?

LM: Or like, kinda in between Hilo and Kona.

MK: Yeah, yeah. But it’s kinda at the end of the road. When I got off the plane yesterday and I was driving in that traffic, I said, to me, that’s not my idea of… I don’t know, I just enjoy the Big Island ’cause get plenty fish, the water is clean, country. There’s certain parts that have no traffic.

LM:  So you might retire there?

MK: Yeah. I remember one time I went over there during the winter time, and the waves came really big. And, the main spot of Kona is Lymans, it’s a left, I’m a goofy footer.

LM:  Me too!

MK: Oh! So, I was taking pictures, and the whole week had waves. And it was like, 3–4, 4–5, and all of a sudden, they said, “Oh, gonna have a real big swell.” The thing came up to like 8–10 feet with bigger sets. And I looked out, and it was perfect, and there was a half a dozen guys out there. I looked at my wife, and I said, “You know what, I haven’t surfed in long time, but I’m ready to go buy one, if I cannot rent one board, I’ll buy one.” So, I see this guy, and he was walking away. I said, “Bruddah, you know some place I can go rent one board?” He goes, “You see that condo over there, get one surf shop over there, Kona Bali Kai, they rent you boards over there.” I said, “Really?” He go, “Yeah.” Within a half an hour, I’m back with a board under my arm, and I’m all excited, it’s pumpin’, it’s smokin’. And I’m walking up the point, and local guys are looking at me and goin, “Alright, bruddah, go get um, go get um!” ’Cause they’re looking at me, and it’s like, outta six waves, one is ridden. Five empty waves to one. And I was like, I chipped my teeth out at North Shore, surfing the North Shore, and it was dog-eat-dog. Banging’ rails, and it wasn’t like, “Oh, yeah, go bruddah!” No, no, guys will drop in on you, I mean mercilessly.

LM:  Yeah, there’s a lot of people.

MK: So, when guys treated me like that, I was like, “That’s aloha, that.” And, I’m sorry, but, I respond to that. And, even like now, I’ll go over there, and I’ll go look for one hee, I’ll let the small ones go. Just if I was over here. If I something with eggs I’ll let it go, don’t touch it. If it’s kapu, don’t shoot it. Make sure it’s legal size. Even though I’m not a resident of over here, I feel like this is my heritage as a Hawaiian. So, when I go to the Big Island, and over here [Ewa], I’ll gather limu, I’ll go and go catch hee, and I’ll take that back with me to Colorado, and I’ll share it with other Hawaiians that are over there. To me, that’s the ability that I have, is to keep, not only for myself, but for other people, this connection. So, to me, it’s not just Ewa Beach specifically, but it is, but more generally, it’s the whole state. I like see the whole state be held in stewardship for our people. Wherever it is. And, I may come back the last time in a box, but my heart is always over here. But I can understand, like you’re saying, and I tell you, I still get second thoughts about selling. That’s why, even like right now, I thinking about that realtor that I’m gonna talk to, friend of my daughter’s, and I’m not sure what I’m gonna tell her, especially after talking to you.

LM: I mean, I don’t know the whole story, but that’s my first response when I hear somebody’s gonna sell their land, especially like family land that you grew up on. I’m just like, “Don’t do it!” You’ll just regret it.

MK: You know, I read George Kanahele’s Ku Kanaka, and one part he says, “If you have ancestral land, don’t sell it.” And, what it is, it’s a place where your family can come and learn the stories of your family, and to be introduced to the history of your family, and a place like this, I mean, this is where we would get the net, lay, go make it, we had two pockets, everybody come in, all the kids, splash, splash, splash, splash, splash, pick up the net with the tube, put the fish in the burlap bag, pick up the net, everybody out, all the kids come back in, the men folks go all the way, start over here by this little cove inside here on the other side of the pipe. And then, go all the way down by Parish Drive, and by the time we got to Parish Drive, we had so much fish. We had more than enough fish for many families, like Uncle Peter, and Aunty Alice, and Uncle Lou, and my brother and my sister. You know, we had all of this as a resource. Whenever we went to Kalihi, we brought gallons of pickled limu with us, you know when we went into town. And for us it was no big deal, but wow, you know when you watch the family, our town family.

LM:  They loved it.

MK:  Aww, it’s like it was gold to them.

LM:  Ahh really? I want some of that now!

MK:  [laughing] I know.

LM:  I want the fish, the manini, that sounds good.

MK:  With the little buds of the limu kala…

LM:  Yeah! I wanna try that now!

MK: But, no matter what, this place will always be home to me, it will always be one hanau. So, it’ll always be this. And even if in the future, I always think that my family, my descendants could be all blond hair and blue eyes one day.

LM:  Not…

MK: Pretty soon we’re all gonna look the same.

MK:  Yeah.

LM: We’ll all be one race again. [laughing]

MK: Yeah. I just want them to be able, I really want them to know that they’re Hawaiian, that they have Hawaiian, and they should be proud of it. And, even more so, they should try to learn their culture, learn their history, learn their language. For me, I’m terrible with the language. I’m a book worm, I get books all over my house. I can digest books on history, all that, but to learn the Hawaiian language, I have not found the key that unlocks that, and I don’t understand how.

LM: Immersion. Yeah, it’s hard. Language, you gotta live it, to really know.

MK: That’s why, to me, I don’t know if I ever will, but I not going give up. And I have friends up there [Colorado] and we tried to.

LM: When did you move to Colorado?

MK: ’91. So, I just want my children and my grandchildren and descendants, I want them to be proud of who they are and what they are. And as long as we get at least one place over here [Ewa], we still got our foot in the door as far as being able to have access to this place which has fed my family for almost 100 years. So, at the very least, I still get that, but if I could figure out something as far as this property, I’ll show you after.

LM: Okay.

MK: If I could figure out something, I’d love to be able to figure out something that I could say, you know what, this is the cornerstone of a legacy that I could pass down to my descendants and my family. If I could do that, that would be… I could kick out happy.

Six members of the Shibuya-Dayanan family gathered together for a small family reunion at Kualakai-White Plains Beach in September 2012. Barbara Shibuya, one of the younger members of the family, coordinated the opportunity for the interview to take place. While a 33-year difference in ages between the eldest interviewee (born 1933) to the youngest (born 1966) existed, the interviewees shared strong familial connections, and memories with elders who have now passed on. The family kindly shared detailed information covering the lowlands of Honouliuli, from the Honouliuli taro lands and Ewa Plantation Camps to the waters of inland Puuloa and the southern shore of Honouliuli, in the region of Ewa Beach, Oneula, Kiku, and Kualakai-White Plains.

During the interview, participants discussed a wide range of topics, including, but not limited to, the following:

•  Plantation life was hard, but fondly remembered. Plantation camps, including those where Japanese, Filipinos, and other nationalities lived, were centered around the Ewa Mill and extended into the former Honouliuli taro lands. The Hawaiian camp was in the vicinity of the present-day railroad center.
•  Family fished the lochs of Puuloa and the outer Honouliuli coastline. Kuhonu crabs, oysters, limu and fish were gathered or caught. The elder Zoilo Dayanan observed the Hawaiian custom of always giving an offering of the day’s catch back to the ocean, and instructed his own children to do the same.
•  Kiku Point (between Oneula and White Plains) was one of the significant fishing grounds visited by the family.
•  Limu collected included manauea (ogo) and lipoa. The younger generation was always taught to pick carefully, leaving the roots in the reef for future growth. In their lifetime, they have noticed a significant decline in limu, and attribute the decline to various nationalities that have come in and taken without respect.
•  These same practices of respect for the ocean were observed on the land. The elder Zoilo Dayanan had a couple acres of sugar land in Honouliuli that he worked (sort of as a share crop), and before each harvest time, he and his wife would prepare offerings, which would be left in the field when harvest was finished. The family members observed that their Tatai always had the sweetest sugarcane of all the patches.
•  While the family members did not recall hearing traditions of the larger Honouliuli region, they all knew of the night marchers and the need to be respectful of place.
•  Residents of the Oneula-Hau Bush and Kiku vicinity are named and activities described, with recollections of the former piggeries, chicken farm, and many outings in the region.

Interviewees Jose Dayanan (JD), Roxanne Marie Tagama (RT), Barbara Shibuya (BaS), Mona Shibuya (MS), and Janice Trinidad (JT)
Interviewers Kepa Maly (KM) with Onaona Maly (OM)
Place  Kualakai – White Plains
Date  September 17, 2012
Transcribed by Leimomi Morgan, April 14, 2014

KM: We’re gonna just talk story and I should go, if I could, just to get background so I can hear voices, I should start with the oldest, go to the youngest. Just so I hear your name, when born, so that I can hear your voice, okay? So uncle, you the oldest?

JD:  Um hum.

KM: Could you please, what’s your full name?

JD: Well my full name Jose Dayanan.

KM:  Born?

JD:  I been born in Ewa, September 3, 1933.

KM: Wow.

JD:  Yeah. And I been working for the Ewa Plantation through many years.

KM: Wow.

JD: Well that’s over, but after high school.

KM:  Yes, yes. Wonderful.

JD:  Yeah.

KM: Uncle, do me a favor please. Spell your last name for me.

JD:  Dayanan. D-A-Y-A-N-A-N.

KM:  Oh, okay, okay. Oh, good. Tell me real quickly. Your parents were from here or did they come?

JD: Oh, they’re from the Philippines.

KM:  Okay. Sakada, then? When did, Papa them must have come what in the ’20s? or early ’30s? Do you know?

JD: The ’20s.

KM:  ’20s maybe.

JD:  Well, I was born 1933.

KM: Yes, so very early. Did your father come to work at the plantation here?

JD:  Yeah, they said at the beginning.

KM:  Oh wow…

JD:  They were cutting cane when I was young. But the plantation did not brought up right.

KM: Yes.

JD:  From all of the labor…

KM:  …all of the labor of the people who worked the land.

JD: Even my mom, too, was working…

KM: Really? Wow.

JD:  …the plantation.

KM: Wow.

JD:  Yeah.

KM: Did both of your parents come from the Philippines?

JD: [unintelligible]… Philippines.

KM: What area? Do you remember?

JD: From Cebu.

KM:  Cebu, oh, okay.

JD: So, from there they came down Hawaii.

KM:  Yes. They came very early, because…

JD: They were the first ones.

KM:  Yeah, among that first group, yeah?

JD: Yeah. First group, yeah.

KM: Yeah, because then in 1946 the HSPA brought a bigger group, yeah. Sakada, about 6,000 came. But your parents were early, because if you were born out here in ’33…

JD:  Yeah, so they must came around the ’16 or ’20…

KM:  Yeah. 1920-ish. Sorta there.

JD: Yeah, there. Right, right.

RT: Yeah, grandma was born 1908.

KM: Wow.

JD: Yeah, yeah. Right there.

KM:  Your mama?

JD:  Yeah.

KM: His mama, your grandmother?

RT:  Yeah.

JD:  Yeah.

KM: Wow, okay, wonderful.

JD:  Yeah, could be around there.

KM:  What was your father’s full name?

JD:  Ah… Zoilo Dayanan.

KM: Okay. And mama?

ID/RT:  Juana Astacaan.

KM: Okay, oh, thank you. So we talked, so this is your niece, here?

JD:  Yeah.

KM: And you’re next in age?

RT: Down, yeah.

KM:  Okay. Please, would you mind sharing your full name, date of birth?

RT: Date of birth and my name?

KM:  Sure, and we should have your maiden name also.

RT:  Um, Roxanne Marie Tagama.

KM: Okay.

RT: I’m the oldest of three of my siblings, right here. And, I was born and raised in Ewa, which was then called Fernandez Village.

KM:  Fernandez?

RT:  Fernandez Village.

KM:  Oh, I’m sorry.

RT: Fernandez Village. That’s the house right on the front of Renton Road.

KM:  Okay. So…

RT:  Because I’ve been there…

KM:  So, Renton, and…?

RT: Just Renton on Fort Weaver, no?

KM: So right on Renton and Fort Weaver?

RT:  Yeah.

JD:  They used to have the Filipino Camp before.

KM:  That was the Filipino Camp?

RT:  We were called the Filipino Camp.

JD: That’s, you know where the graveyard is? Those were the… those were the camp.

KM:  Yes! So by the Catholic church? Is that where? Was the church there?

RT: That was called Fernandez. We had a lower village. Which my mom and my step-dad lived with my siblings. And that the part of the old Ewa Hospital, which no longer exists.

KM:  Yes, yes.

RT:  And then we had a Korean camp, which was behind Fernandez Village.

KM:  So behind Fernandez, mauka? Waianae?

RT: Ahh, mauka.

KM:  Mauka. So, towards the up section, then?

RT:  Correct.

KM:  Korean Village? Korean Camp?

RT:  That was Korean Camp. Why it was named that, I really don’t know.

KM: No more Koreans at that time?

JD:  Oh, used to have.

RT:  Had Filipino!

KM: Ohh. Well you know, it must have started because when Ewa Plantation started in 1890, that’s when they originally founded, yeah, 1890 as I understand.

JD:  Yeah, they had all that…

KM: That’s right. So they had different. Japanese, then Korean came, and then the Filipino came.

RT:  Yeah, we had a lot, I mean. And we also had C Village.

KM: “C”?

RT: C Village where the piggery was.

KM:  Oh… where was that?

RT:  Right in front of Varona Village.

KM: Varona?

RT: Yeah Varona Village. Banana Camp they used to call it, now. It’s still there.

BaS:  I could take you riding one day.

KM: Oh, that would be great.

RT: But the village no longer exists.

BaS: It’s there, it’s there, but, people live there.

RT: People called it Banana Camp.

KM: Was there a reason?

RT: But Banana Camp versus C Village was opposite end.

BaS:  Had a lot of bananas.

KM:  I see.

RT: Where Varona Village still exists, but C Village is no longer there.

BaS:  Yeah, that’s not there anymore.

KM: Leveled out, or are there houses there now?

RT: Leveled out. And behind C Village, my parents used to live was called Mendonca Farm. And that little village consists of maybe 5 houses and a long building, you remember that?

BaS:  Leland said that that was a horse, where they used to keep horses, yeah.

KM:  Oh, the Stable Camp?

RT:  Yeah. That’s why it was long.

BaS:  That’s why it would look like what it looked like inside.

RT:  Really?

BaS: Yeah.

RT: Who owned that, Mendoncas?

xx: Mendonca’s had one, two, three. Three sections.

KM: Really? Ohh…

RT:  Yeah. And my mom and my dad lived, we went in circles around there.

BaS: Oh, yeah. We lived all over Ewa, honestly.

KM: Ohh.

BaS:  Lower Camp had the best view, but.

RT:  Yeah.

KM: Which view?

BaS:  Lower Camp.

RT: That’s where the keiki, family keiki center.

KM: Yes.

RT:  Okay, right across the street there’s like a hill. And that’s where we used to live.

KM: Oh, so the one right on the main Fort Weaver Road now.

RT/BaS: Yes. You remember when the big tree standing in the middle of nowhere? They claimed that they can’t cut the tree down because they hear babies crying. So that’s why that big tree is still there.

KM:  And sorry, was that connected with the hospital area, or not?

RT: No, because, what village was it I just said?

BaS:  Lower Village.

RT: Yeah, Lower Village. But of course the hill brings you up there. And then the old Ewa Plantation Hospital was here, and if you go up Lower Village all the way to the tip, because there was a dead end. When you overlook the fence that’s called Chocolate Beach.

KM: Chocolate?

RT: Chocolate Beach, where we went crabbing there. In our younger…

BaS:  I could take you back there, too.

RT:  Yeah, it’s different.

KM:  You know, we’re gonna have to try and find, I’m sorry, usually I come and I bring maps to places. But, I couldn’t find any old Ewa Plantation maps, so I gotta try look around because that would be good. Like when you’re talking about Filipino Camp, Korean Camp, must have had Japanese Camp somewhere?

Group: Yeah. Tenney Village was Japanese Camp.

KM:  I’m sorry, Tenney?

RT:  T-E-N-N-E-Y. That’s where I live still.

KM:  Oh. So that was Japanese Village?

BaS: Yeah, used to have a lot of Japanese families.

KM: Was Tenney one of the managers or something?

RT: No, was Ed Bryan.

Group: [discusses managers’ names]

KM:  Managers?

BaS:  Yeah, they were like the luna, kind.

KM:  Ohh. Yeah, because I think I’ve heard the name Tenney.

JD: Yeah, James Orrick, too… Yeah? The manager.

RT:  See, hence Orrick Street, yeah, Bond Street…

KM: James Orrick?

JD:  Yeah, James Orrick.

KM: Bond?

xx:  It’s a Bond, we have a Bond Street.

RT: Imelda, I don’t know where Imelda Marcos came from but we have…

xx: That’s in Fernandez.

RT:  Filipino Village.

KM:  Yes, yes. How interesting.

RT:  Even Renton Road.

KM: What was Renton Road?

BaS:  It’s named after somebody, one of the workers.

KM:  Oh, it’s not a military person?

RT:  No.

KM:  Oh really, so it’s older? I just assumed, like so many of the ones, they took it over made military names.

BaS: No, not Ewa. Not Ewa.

KM: Ohh, so really, Ewa Plantation, now where the old mill was is where the district park area is, the new building now, right, basically? So, from there, you folks stretched, the camp stretched…

RT:  All the way out…

BaS:  To where the choochoo-trains are at.

KM:  To the trains?

RT:  By the railway.

KM: Ohh.

RT: Hawaiian Camp.

KM:  You said there’s Hawaiian Camp?

RT:  Hawaiian Camp. Because they used to be the workers for the railroad.

JD: Right, right.

KM: Ohh.

RT:  And that used to be all Hawaiian families.

KM:  Wow, interesting.

RT:  Yeah, only Hawaiian families lived there.

xx:  I could get you to speak to someone, that would be Gaelic them.

KM: Ohh, interesting. I will try, if I can find you folks some old maps to plantation, how it was laid out, it would be really beautiful because you know, all these things you’re talking about, it’s so nice when we can mark it on the maps and then actually commit it to a place, yeah?

Group:  Umm hum [in agreement].

KM:  How interesting. But at least you guys know what the modern stuff is.

RT: She knows a lot.

KM:  Yeah.

RT: She’s old that’s why! [laughing]

Group: [laughing]

KM:  And sorry, actually did, I don’t know think you shared with me your date of birth?

RT:  July 13, 1955.

KM:  Ohh, okay.

RT: I was born in the Ewa Plantation Hospital.

KM: Okay. Just like uncle? Uncle, too, was born there?

JD:  Yeah.

KM: Wow.

xx: She [gesturing to xx] was too!

RT: I was one of the last.

Sisters:  We were, I was born in Wahiawa.

Sisters:  I was born in Wahiawa General also.

Sisters: But that hospital was, even when we got World War II attack, my aunty was working there. Aunty Booning and I think she saw one of the planes or something?

KM:  Aunty Booning?

RT: Yeah, she’s gone though. He’s [gesturing to uncle] the last surviving one.

KM:  Ohh, interesting…

KM:  So, I take it, you next?

xx:  No me, this one.

KM:  Oh, I’m so sorry!

MS:  That’s okay!

RT:  They’re only one year apart.

xx:  Yeah.

RT: They travel together.

MS: So you need the name?

KM:  Please, name and date of birth.

MS:  Mona Claire Aiko Shibuya, October 7, 1958.

KM: Okay now, what’s your connection here?

MS:  We’re sisters [with RT].

KM:  So how did you come up?

RT:  Half-sisters.

MS: I’m divorced, that’s my maiden name.

KM: I’m sorry, yes. But you have a Japanese middle name.

MS:  ’Cause I’m Japanese.

RT:  Half-sisters.

MS: Yeah, same mother.

RT:  Different father.

KM:  Yeah, I see. Okay, it’s just, so you were born in ’57?

MS:  ’58.

KM: So even by that time it’s kind of unusual, particularly for Japanese to marry Filipino.

RT:  To inter-marry.

MS:  Yeah, to marry.

RT: Exactly.

KM:  You know, even on Lanai it was. When I was in school on Japanese, the parents never like the girl go with one haole boy.

Group:  Yeah, yeah.

MS:  It was so hard.

JD: Before, it was a land trust.

MS:  We felt the difference.

RT:  Especially within the Pearl Harbor.

JD: Ohh, yeah. [laughing]

KM:  Ohh, and you said 1958, but you were born up Wahiawa Hospital, then?

MS:  Wahiawa General.

KM: Okay.

MS:  For whatever reason, mom and dad, I don’t know.

KM: Yeah. But Ewa [Plantation] was still open because you were the youngest?

RT:  Yeah, I was born there [in 1955].

KM: Well you know, you brought up an interesting point when you mentioned that people talk about, where was it, where they hear babies cry? The tree and they don’t like?

MS:  It’s right there…

KM:  It’s by the child support…?

MS:  Yeah, when you go down, there’s this tree. It’s just the tree just in the middle standing in nowhere.

JD:  That’s a landmark. [laughing]

KM: Yes. It is interesting because we know that in the earlier days, particularly through the ’50s, but before, there was a very high infant mortality rate on the plantations. There were some good doctors, but there were some, you know, and families often said, “It wasn’t until so-and-so came that finally our babies started living.” So, it’s interesting, you know that every child that was born in a plantation hospital is a survivor.

Group: Umm hum… [in agreement]

KM: That survived that.

MS: Well, my uncle them, in the old plantation graveyard. They have two brothers there. What did they die of uncle?  Feliciano and… pneumonia. And they were babies, too, right?

RT: Yeah, they were 2 and 3 years old.

KM:  So that’s in the old graveyard that’s on Fort Weaver?

Group:  Yeah.

RT:  Our grandfather is in there, too.

KM: Ohh.

MS: Yeah, his [indicating Jose] dad.

KM: Now, forgive my ignorance again. Catholic church, there was a Catholic cemetery, is that correct? Or not, was that plantation?

MS: No, plantation.

RT:  Plantation.

KM: Okay, but where was the church relative to that? Close by?

MS:  Still there, still there.

RT: We had only one church.

KM: Okay, so that’s right in the camp, then?

JD: It’s still there, still there.

RT:  Yep.

KM: Ohh.

MS:  Immaculate Conception is the Catholic church, and then Ewa Community is the Christian church.

KM:  Ohh, okay.

MS: Right next to Ewa Elementary and the two churches.

KM:  Yes. Ohh.

JT:  But didn’t they have another Catholic Church by Honouliuli and they grew too big and that’s why they went build Ewa Church?

RT: That must be years ago.

KM: There is a history of an older one, you are correct. At Honouliuli there was a Catholic lot, but that lot was actually awarded… By the 1850s it’s already there.

MS: Ho, that’s a long time.

KM: And so that predated the plantation. When the plantation came, all of this, back then it was only a few Hawaiians who were being Catholics. But when the plantation came, particularly with the Filipino influx, yeah, it built up so they created interest. So you’re absolutely right, by what used to be the taro lands, all at Honouliuli.

JT: But then I think the Catholic church also purchased property there, in Honouliuli, that’s where our new church supposed to go.

KM:  Oh really?

JT:  But right now it’s still…

RT:  Pending.

JT:  Yeah. I’m not sure.

KM:  I wonder if it’s on the same land, or if they bought new land. Interesting. That’s actually old, there was old land for the church at one point.

JT: By the golf course area.

KM: So please, give me your full name and date of birth.

JT:  My name is Janice Kiyoko Shibuya Trinidad, born January 2, 1960.

KM:  And, Barbara [Shibuya], you’re the baby of the whole family.

BaS:  Um hum.

KM: Okay, when were you born?

BaS:  March 25, 1966.

KM: Ohh, wow, big spread, yeah?

BaS:  I know, that’s why they used to make any kine to me.

KM:  Yeah?

BaS:  Yeah, beat me up, everything. [laughing]

KM: Lots of love, lots of love. [laughing]

RT: It’s just the way she is cause she was just spoiled rotten.

BaS: That’s okay. It’s all good.

Group: [laughing]

KM: That’s what they all say, it’s like you guys started, no more new clothes, did you have rice bag undergarments or stuff like that?

MS: Oh, we all have stories.

BaS: I was blessed, I nice, nice clothes! They had the puka panties, not me!

RT:  Holy smoke! I’m not gonna say anything about our underwear because we’re being recorded!

Group: [laughing]

MS: Nobody’s gonna hear it, right?

KM:  Oh, no, this is for you folks.

MS: Yeah, he can say it ’cause it’s for us! He’s not gonna go public. And even if he does with it, somewhere down the road, it’ll leave a legacy for the ones we leave behind! [laughing]

KM: Kids don’t realize how lucky they are now!

RT: When we were growing up, ’cause my mom and my dad was working, and I had my three sisters, being her that the youngest, I don’t recall, but what I used to do is put this one [Barbara] in the middle and all us three would jump around the bed, if ever she fell down, and I got good lickens.

KM: Ohhh.

BaS: See, and that’s why, I’m a receptionist only ’cause they abused me!

Group: [laughing]

BaS: Tell ’um about duyan, they don’t know what is a duyan.

RT: Oh, it’s like a little baby hammock that’s laid out on a rice bag. And it’s attached to the wall, to the corner, like this, like a hammock. And then what my grandmother used to do is tie one end, strong, then I would put the pillow in and put her in…

BaS: And whip me around.

RT: And just because I was tired, and she wouldn’t go to sleep, I would tie the rope… [gestures pulling]

BaS:  You guys are crazy! [laughing] No, but it makes the baby go to sleep.

KM: Yeah, of course! Yes, yes.

BaS: And today it’s called “Shaken Baby Syndrome!”

Group: [laughing]

KM:  Duyan?

Group: Yeah, duyan.

RT: It was made out of rice bag.

JD: [laughing]

RT: It was strong.

KM: Well of course, plenty guys had garments made out of rice bags, yeah?

JD: Yeah, at those days.

KM:  Yeah.

JD: Yeah, used for shorts.

RT:  And then what happened is his younger brother, when he was young, he was really naughty. He’s no longer here with us.

JD: [laughing]

RT: And he was saying that one day, our grandpa told him to do something, he didn’t listen, well his friends now came, called him, “Patoy! Let’s go play!” My grandpa said, “No.” You know what my grandpa did, put dress on him, that was our mom’s dress. And he went to the window and he said, “I no can, I get dress!”

Group: [laughing]

RT:  I said, “Wow!”

KM:  You have one of two choices, either he never did it again, or he like wearing dresses!

Group: [laughing]

MS:  He never did it again!

RT:  His pants got burned by a cigarette… you know the Pake store, in the back?

JD:  Yeah.

RT: It was in somebody’s garage. And I guess, he went to the store, ’cause he was sent there to go buy something, according to him, and he liked. ’Cause he would pick the buds on the ground. And he did not know that my grandpa was coming, and he saw my grandpa, he said he put the cigarette in, and it started to smoke out. Funny, he was dancing.

KM: So, you mentioned the store, so in your camp, did you have like sometime, did men go around the camp?

RT: Yes. We had a peddler.

KM:  So, the peddler would go and…?

RT: Right, but this particular store, was built in someone’s garage, and the one who ran that store, he was Chinese.

MS:  Mau.

RT:  Yeah, Mau.

xx:  Then the son took over.

MS: Because the father passed away.

KM:  So did you folks have, you know, do you remember, uncle, you had bango?

JD: Yeah. Right, right, right.

MS: Yeah, they all had bango.

KM: So that’s how you had to, you would go sign.

JD: You use it for charge.

RT:  Even Ewa Store.

KM: Was it by…

Group:  By the Post Office.

JT:  Friendship Bible has taken over the building.

Group:  Ohhhh.

JT:  Yeah, that was the best store. They had the best barbeque meat, baloney…

JD: [laughing]

MS: Yeah, you could buy fresh meat there. You could choose what meat, it’s not pre-packaged. So you could say, I want one pound of hamburger, one pound of barbeque meat, you know.

RT: All kinds.

MS: I miss that.

BaS:  Yeah, and when we had parties, if we had pigs, they would let our father hang our pigs in there.

JT: Yeah, in the back room.

KM: Wow.

JT: You could buy the biggest block of ice, for a quarter!

KM: Did you folks still have ice box, or you had regular refrigerator?

MS: Oh, that’s only for parties. To hang our pig and they would get it in the morning. I miss those days, I reminisce…

KM: You miss those days, yeah? In the plantation days, when you were young, were the camps sort of isolated, like Filipinos stay here, Japanese there…?

JD:  Yeah.

KM:  So, there was kind of a separation between the groups?

BaS: Yeah, even until when I was growing up, my boyfriend that I’m dating now, we grew up together, but like I said, he moved away, came back 27 years later. He knew that I came from the Japanese Camp, and like I was off limits. Yeah.

JD: [laughing]

BaS: Yeah.

JT: We couldn’t walk a certain street in Ewa, because that would be the luna’s homes. And I remember my dad saying, “Don’t walk down this certain street.” But me and my sister walked down that street because that street had so much shade! And then, my dad got a call, well they went to his site, and they knew whose child, we belonged to, who’s your parents. And then my dad said, “Don’t you guys walk down that street,” cause somebody turned us in.

KM: Amazing. Even in the 1960s. Who was the manager then, do you remember?

MS:  Ed Bryan.

JD: No, had Orrick. Orrick, too.

MS:  But, I know Mr. Ed Bryan. I didn’t know the other one.

KM:  Orrick was earlier?

JD:  That’s right, when one of the old managers died, Bryan came.

MS: Ohh. Orrick and then Bryan.

JD:  Yeah, James Orrick.

KM:  Yeah, James Orrick? Wow.

JD:  Yeah, before.

KM: Wow, it’s so interesting how the sugar plantation was actually much more strict about that, than on Lana‘i.

JD:  Yeah, they’re all really different. Really different.

KM:  Different camp, different village. Were there even different stores, like you know, Filipinos shopped at this store, Japanese shopped there?

RT: No, no, it was just the good old, Ewa Shopping Basket.

KM:  Ewa Shopping Basket. So that was…

MS:  Well had Murata Store.

RT:  Oh, that’s right.  We forgot about Murata Store. That was called Honouliuli Shokai.

KM:  Honouliuli Shokai?

RT: They were run by Japanese.

MS:   Honouliuli.

RT:  Honouliuli, yeah. That’s right… Shokai.

BaS:  Chiuku’s, too, on the corner.

MS:  There’s, the building is still there, but it’s all ugly now. I think it’s still there.

BaS:  Have you guys been back there on that street?

KM: No, we should go sometime.

BaS:  I can take you.

KM:  Yeah.

JD:  Cause no more have the store, but the foundation.

BaS:  Yeah, yeah. My uncle used to live back there for a little while that’s why.

JD:  I remember the owner of that place.

BaS:  Was cute back there.

MS: Cute, was so cozy.

JD:  They own a big lot down there in Ewa. I never know they own so many acres in there.

BaS:  The Murata family. There was a Japanese internment camp back there, too.

KM:  Ahh, that’s where the internment camp was during the war?

BaS:  Across the street, I believe, yeah.

KM:  Ohh. Let’s talk, real quickly. How old do you think you were when you started… What did you do, hoe hana in the sugar, or did you actually cut sugar or what?

JD: Umm… cut grass, and I cut cane.

KM:  You cut cane? From when you were in school?

JD: Umm, yeah.

KM:  About how old do you think you were?

JD:  Um, let’s see. 18.

KM:  Ohh, ohh. So, high school already?

JD:  Yeah.

KM: Did any of you girls work plantation?

Group: No, no, no.

JT:  Like I said, no, because he knew it was gonna fold up.

KM:  Ohh. Did you folks know Bill, William Balfour?

BaS:  Yeah, Bill Balfour.

MS:  That was my dad’s good friend, too.

BaS:  Is that the kine, Don’s uncle? Don, the one I dated.

RT:  Bill Balfour. I worked for the brother, Dr. Balfour.

MS:  Ohh, yeah, that’s right. He was the luna before, too.

KM: Apparently, Balfour was the one who was working when the plantation closed.

MS: Yeah.

JT:  His mother married that man.

BaS:  I dated the step-son.

JT: [laughing] That’s her fault.

MS: So he now works for the city, yeah?

KM:  Yes, parks and rec.

RT: His wife’s name was Dedra, I think.

KM: Dedra?

RT:  Yeah, I met her once.

JT:  That’s Don’s mom?

RT:  I worked with him, ’cause Mr. Balfour’s brother is Dr. Balfour for Straub…

KM: …Well you know, it’s so interesting, sounds like plantation… growing up when it was plantation, you folks sounds like you kinda, it was a good life, though. Sounds like it was good fun.

Group: Yeah, yeah [in agreement].

RT: Yeah, you don’t get a lot of material things, but there was love. And you could just hop on your bike and just go, “Uh oh! The whistle blowing, gotta go home!”

KM: Ohh, so what time did your whistles blow?

RT:  Three o’clock.

MS: Three thirty.

BaS: Seven and three, and eight o’clock.

RT: Ohh, gotta go sleep now! [laughing]

MS: You can hear, it’s really loud!

RT: Yeah! [mimics sound of whistle] [laughing]

KM: So was the whistle on the mill? On the sugar mill?

RT:  Yeah!

MS:  It comes from the mill. So loud!

BaS: But 3 o’clock is like, “I gotta get my butt home ’cause I gotta put the hot water on the stove for dad’s coffee.” [laughing]

JD: [laughing]

BaS: The rice gotta be cooking.

KM: Was that pau hana?

BaS: And something gotta be thawed out. That’s when they all grew up already and I had to take care of the chores.

KM: Ohhh.

Group: [laughing]

KM: So you had to pay your dues?

BaS: Back then, you respected your parents. You didn’t have to get a whip for it. You knew what you needed to do and you did it.

RT:  They hop onto the truck, sit on the bench, and then they’re taken home. So, they park on one side, and all the old folks come down.

JD: [laughing]

RT: Then they go onto the next stop.

MS:  It was nice!

OM: You guys have pictures from before at all?

Group: Umm, no… I don’t think so.

BaS:  Humm, but we can get, because we just had a…

KM: Well we should talk story about some photos, too. Did you folks used to go down to the beach on the Pearl Harbor side?

RT: Ohh, yeah! Used to have oysters stick out of the ground!

MS:  When it was low tide, my dad would go over scoop um up, and fill up the big barrel.

JT: What was it, oysters?

MS: Yeah! Throw um the fire!

JD:  Had clams! And everything.

BaS:  And clams! And crab.

MS:  And crabbing!

RT: That’s a different kinda crabbing.

BaS: See, when my husband started going crabbing, when we started dating, “Ohh, we’re gonna go crabbing!” They would go by the bridge and throw the nets in, and I’m like, “That’s not crabbing!”

RT:  We were raised where, you walk in the water! And it’s dirty.

BaS:  And then they lay out the crab nets with all our fish heads inside, by the time we line um up, then we walk all the way back, we dumping out already.

KM: Samoan crab, or what?

BaS:  Uh, no, just the regular one.

KM: They call kuhonu?

MS:  Kuhonu crab.

KM: Are they about this big?

Group:  Yeah!

RT: What you guys used to call uncle, Sand Crab?

MS:  No, Blue Crab.

KM:  Yeah, I think that’s Haole Crab.

JD:  The Blue One. And they have the Haole Crab. And they have dots on the top.

MS: You see, going out, we don’t know get shark, yeah? In the water.

JD: [laughing]

RT: So, we’re just going, following the “Big Baldee,” we call it Big Baldee, and then uncle is in the front of us, with a big stick, and we get the Big Baldee…

MS: And we walking…

RT: All we thinking about, “Ohh, we gonna get crab tonight!”

JD: [laughing]

MS:  And then we come out all itchy, itchy. ’Cause get like fiber glass, yeah.

RT: So, itchy, it’s really funny.

MS:  But ohh, that’s okay!

KM: What was the itch from?

MS:  The water is dirty! The chocolate beach.

JT:  It’s brackish water.

BaS: We call it Chocolate Beach.

JD: Brackish water, yeah.

RT:  And then not knowing, cause you cannot see what’s in the water…

MS:  Yeah, it’s murky, it’s muddy.

KM: Did you folks never hear stories about sharks out there?

RT: They never told us.

BaS:  They said hammerhead, no, Jan?

JT:  Yeah, no, but there’s a lot of hammerhead sharks out there…

JD:  I think they did, but doesn’t matter.

MS: They never told us.

KM: You know, it is interesting because Puuloa, the old Awalau, the old Pearl Harbor, was famed for one shark, that they called the shark goddess. And she actually protected people, no man-eating sharks, you folks never heard the story?

JD: No.

KM: No man-eating shark ever enter into from at Keahi, Iroquois Point, was kapu already in the old days. So people who lived within Puuloa, the Pearl Harbor area, they said, never had to be afraid of sharks. But you folks never heard stories, yeah?

JT:  We never heard stories of anybody getting eaten.

JD: [laughing]

RT: Because, we was like, “No problem!” [laughing]

KM: But uncle, you said one knocked you one time? One shark you felt went knock you?

JD:  You can feel um, the hammerhead shark. You can feel the head, yeah?

KM: Yeah ’cause rough, kalakala, the skin, yeah? You can feel, like sandpaper.

RT: I think after that incident, when we went crabbing next time, there was a big barge, Chocolate Beach, we’d go on top that barge. So uncle said, “Put your aku head and go.” Me, Vern, and Nina, went jump over the net, and we kept making big noise, so uncle got mad. We neva catch. That noise.

KM: Well, you know what? That’s another interesting story for Ewa, they say that in Puuloa, in the old days they called it Awalau o Puuloa, Pearl Harbor, now. And, there was a kapu, you know the oyster, that you folks talk about?

Group: Uh-hmm.

KM: The old Hawaiian oyster they called pipi, and that oyster, if you made noise when you went fishing, it caused enough of a breeze, that the oysters would all go hide, they would be hidden, and you could never find them. So, even those kinds of stories, the practices that go on, you know. Like, your parents never told you, “Watch out for the shark.”

MS:  No.

KM: Then, when you go make noise, and then they come huhu, they say “Pau, go home,” right?

RT: Yeah. Only thing, his father, my grandpa, used to go to, what is it uncle, Kiku Point?

JD:  Yeah, Kiku.

RT: And I was little, and I went fishing with my uncle, his older brother, and I was little. And I went, cause I got up early. They caught lotta, lotta fish, that my grandpa told my uncle, “Panyo…” that was my uncle’s name, “I going throw one back.” My uncle got mad, yeah? So my grandpa said, “You just no keep on taking, taking. You give back.”

JD:  Yes…

RT: Because we had three bucket full of fish, that my grandpa wen throw one, my uncle got huhu, he was mad! So my grandpa said, “No, no, no, no, two is enough for, you know.” And my mom them came, and my grandpa used to divide.

KM: Divide the share, yeah?

RT: Yeah. But always give back to the sea.

KM: That’s such an important cultural practice.

RT: But it’s like, grandpa, you know like, they work in the plantation. And had his own two acres of field by Honouliuli.

JD:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

RT: Okay. I was little, I was born and raised up by my grandma and grandpa. Because when I was little, when my mom met my step dad. Well to begin with, to make things short, my dad had another family.

BaS:  Her real dad, now. Not my dad!

RT:  [laughing]

MS:  And they had a big, big age difference. My mom was only 19, my real dad was 41!

JT: Yeah, he was already married!

RT: And he didn’t tell my mom, so of course, my grandpa I think was against it. But, when you’re in love… they got married… [family discusses background of various families, one in Hawaii and one in the Philippines]

After she had me, because all this commotion, she left me with these guys! My uncle, my grandpa, they the one that brought me up! She went to the Big Island, and then she went to stay with Aunty Trini Jusul, yeah?

JD:  Yeah, yeah.

RT: Then she met my step-dad, so they got…

KM:   So Shibuya was from…?

MS: Yeah. Keaau.

KM: Ohh, Keaau.

MS: Olaa.

JT:  Ohh, Olaa.

RT:  Then, when my mom gave birth to this one, they came back because now my step-dad was now with the plantation because of grandpa!

JD: [laughing] Yeah, yeah.

RT: When they came over, and my mom now wanted to take me because now she’s married, she’s settled, and I have a…

KM:  Yes, yes. So you have a sister.

RT:  And my grandma said, “Leave me with them! Leave um with me.”

JD: [laughing]

RT: Because now you guys live here, you could always, you know…

KM:  Yes, yes.

RT:  So, that’s why I was brought up [by my grandparents.]

KM:  So she was so attached to you folks…

RT:  After that, cause you know my mom left me with them because of this.

KM: Yeah, of course. From young, yeah.

BaS:  But we never considered each other as half, it’s like, that’s our loved. We’re like, “What!? That’s our sister!”

KM:  That’s how family is! That’s how family is.

RT:  Because, I really didn’t know my real father’s side. Cause after I was brought up by my step-father, which he carried me under his medical, everything.

JT:  Wow…

RT:  So, that was the part of the story of my life and it’s just so different. And, it’s nice.

KM:  So, interesting, so Shibuya must have been working for Olaa Sugar Company, or…?

RT:  Was it Olaa? I think so you know…

KM: In Keaau. With the Shipmans.

JT:  Well actually, they met at, I thought they met at Young Laundry?

MS: Yeah…

BaS: No, Ariyoshi’s ah?

MS: Yeah, Ariyoshi’s Laundry, yeah? Out there.

RT: Where, in the Big Island?

MS: No, here.

JT:  Here.

BaS: Yeah, here.

RT:  Where did? Because according to Nanai, when I asked her, then even mom, she said, “Ohh, no, we…” ’Cause she went to the Big Island, yeah, with uncle?

JD:  Yeah.

RT: And she got married!

JD:  [laughing; group discusses family and marriage background]

JT:  As far as we know, that mom and dad met at the Ariyoshi Laundry. Dad was a driver and mom was a checker, I think.

JD: Oh.

JT:  That’s how they met.

RT: Then they moved to the Big Island?

JT: We went Big Island.

BaS: Well, maybe they were there at Big Island, cause that’s where dad’s family is!

RT:  And stayed there for a while and then came back…!

MS: And so the first time I ever met aunty them, we was living lower camp, and they came and remember mom going, “Hey, get some Japanese ladies outside!” That’s the first time mommy met.

JD:  Oh…

Group:  [laughing, continues discussing background and relationships]

KM:  …Interesting. So see, good thing we talk story!

Group:  Yeah!

BaS:  But this is good, because we don’t have this when my mom was alive. Well, she had some awesome stories, that we wish we taped.

KM:  Well you know, and then going back to your story, did you say, Kiku? Where did you say where you went with your Tatai?

BaS:  Kiku Point!

KM:  Where is that?

MS:  Kiku, Kiku.

KM: Kiku?

MS:  K-I-K-U.

RT: It wasn’t too far from here, anyway.

KM:  Oh, I wonder why they call it Kiku Point?

JD: Yeah, yeah, that’s a beach.

BaS:  Maybe it was a nickname.

RT: And then there was one Kahe Point, but that was toward Nanakuli area.

KM:  Yeah, yeah Kahe Point.

MS: And Kahe Point is still there.

KM:  Yes, Kahe Point is still there.

JT: But no more Kiku Point, I think this is Nimitz, already.

BaS:  But we used to pick ogo at Puuloa.

KM:  Ohh, really?

BaS:  Yeah, we used to swim inside.

KM: So speaking of limu, how about out here and towards Oneula. When you were young, did you ever go out there?

RT: A lot! The seaweed, you talking about?

BaS:  Ohh, yeah!

MS:  Sometimes we walk and just pick it up from the sea, and put it in your basket!

KM: Yeah, just right from the shore.

Group:  Yeah!

JT: For us, that’s rubbish.

KM: Lipoa.

JT: When we were growing up, my aunties would come down, from town, and they’d go, “Ohhhh! Look at all the ogo!” And we were like in the water, “That’s rubbish!”

RT:  [laughing]

MS: Why are they picking up the rubbish, uncle?!

JD: [laughing]

MS:  ’Cause you need the fresh one, in the water! You just gotta go with your feet and you get all the patches!

JT: You could see um at low tide, too!

MS:  And one time, my dad saw me, I went with, “Look, check this out!” I go with my toes, I pull um out! And they get the root!

JT:  The shells!

MS:  Ohh, my dad went ballistic! He said, “Don’t you ever do that again! You go down, and you break it off!”

KM:  Yeah.

MS:  You pick it off! So after that, I was like, “Okay, I won’t do it again!”

KM:  ’Cause you look, now, hardly no more limu.

JD: Those Samoans take all the seaweed.

JT:  Those Samoans, uncle?

MS: And the Filipinos, too.

JD:  You go there, the thing is gone! When they came inside the water, what happened?

KM:  Well there is, even on Lanai.

RT: They used to raid the mango trees, too. Cause I had four mango trees! And we had a fence!

JD: [laughing]

RT: And one day I was home I recall, because my baby was sick.

BaS:  The one family with the daughters? Is that the one yeah?

RT: Yeah. And then, I had a coconut tree. Okay? Then she go, “Hello, hello!” And we had a little dog that I would leave um, you know running around. And I go, “Yes?” and she go, “I can have some mango?!” And I said, “Yeah, you can.” So I said, “When you done, you pick up all the rubbish!” There were three boxes! I said, “Excuse me! Try stop!” Pack! Pack! And then all of a sudden, I saw, one of the Samoan kids when climb my coconut. I said, “What you doin over there?” He took the hatchet and just, Bam! Bam! All the coconut came down. I said, after that, no more.

JD: [laughing]

RT: I said, “No! Enough!” And then they all bring you know the big bag. I said, “Wow! That’s enough! Excuse me, that’s enough!”

KM: Well, it is interesting like you said, how people, like you were describing, your Tatai, like he told even your uncle, “You give back.” Or, you take what you need, not everything, yeah, kinda stuff, yeah?

RT: Ohh, that’s what I was going to finish. Kay, my grandpa, they had, what was he, irrigation, yeah? No?

JD:  Yeah.

RT: And they all had their own acres of fields, my Tatai, his dad, had about an acre and a half. And that was by Honouliuli, above by the, what is that, the water pump?

KM:  Yes, yes.

RT: There’s a water pump. Every three years, I remember, they would harvest our Tata’s field. But, after or before they did take away the cane, my grandma used to cook big pots of food and then the beer, and everything. And I look, how come no more. So, my grandpa, his brother, he comes home, my Tata he take a shower, my grandma gets all the stuff. ’Cause I was staying with them, right? And then we go. There was a hole that my grandpa made. My grandpa say something, and he throws all the food in this hole.

JD:  Yeah. That like offering, yeah?

RT: Yeah. Whereas, the other Filipinos who had cane… skinny, no sugar. Ohh, the crop!

JT:  Yeah, it goes about how sweet your sugar is.

MS:  Yeah, and they would get a big payday, yeah?

RT: Yes, 1600, that was a fortune back then!

MS: And to them, that’s big bucks!

RT: And our day, this other Filipino man told my grandpa, because they were jealous, now. They would harvest their crop, as I recall, they get only 800. My grandpa is like, at 2 grand. That’s a lot of money before! So that’s why they were jealous of my grandpa. My grandpa never tell ’um what he does.

KM: That’s interesting. And you wonder, how did you grandpa, how did you father, learn about that kind. You that you, you care for the land, you give back, it gives to you.

JD:  I think he learn it from his dad, I think.

RT: And after that, all the food, chicken, everything, it’s in there. He’ll take a shovel, he’ll cover it, and then around that little area, he would put beer.

KM: Interesting. So that’s the one by the water pump.

MS:  Above.

KM: The well?

RT:  No more now, yeah? Okay, Honouliuli, not too far where we used to live. Was across. I don’t know how you…

JT:  Isn’t before, didn’t after daddy them when have that field?

RT: He did.

JT:  Daddy had that field after.

MS:  Yeah, he did. My dad did.

RT: And what dad used to do, too, is he would grow vegetables. Squash. All kind of vegetables, and mom used to take it to work and sell um, and the vegetables would be really nice vegetables. And then, maybe the Filipino lady who sold pastry, she would trade in vegetables. One of the Filipino ladies used to trade vegetables…

BaS:  And then you and I we go hide from her in the banyo.

JT: Why, you was scared?

BaS:  Yeah, I was!

JD: [laughing]

KM:  So, did you folks, did you have separate banyo, or was it in the house?

MS:  Yeah, was outhouse. And then the one and number two!

JT: We used to go to the bathroom, no problem, cause used to have the running water.

RT:  They somebody was telling story that a man went go use the restroom, and the water get water rats, and he get bit, yeah?

MS:  Ho! We used to hold, and hold, until we go to our Nanai’s house!

RT: They had a regular toilet! So after that, my dad had to… as soon as the house opened with inside restroom, we were in that house! Because we were like, “Come on!!! Take us Nanai’s house! We gotta go bathroom!!”

KM:  Ohh, how funny! Aue!

RT:  I refused to go use bathroom after that!

MS:  All because we would listen to them talk story, the adults.

BaS: Those outhouse bathrooms were scary! They were scary looking!

MS:  But we didn’t know any better, though!

BaS:  Cause Aunty Jane them had. I never like that one.

MS: Until we listen to their stories.

RT:  You can hear all kinds of stuff underneath there!  You don’t know what’s in there.

MS:  And you just hear the water running, too. Also the stench, too.

JT:  But that’s when we used to throw Pine-O.

RT: There was a board that we sat on, yeah, Jan?

JT:  Yeah, but then after they go put toilet seat cover, but with even those never like use um!

Group: [laughing]

RT:  And we used to pee in pots, yeah? You remember, night time?

JT: Yeah, because, who wants to walk all the way…

MS: It was outside.

JT: And there’s no lights!

JD: [laughing]

KM: So, speaking of no light, and then we have to come back to the ocean in a moment, so you folks said, last night, Barbara said you folks was talking ghost stories. Did you folks ever hear any kine? Or did you? Like Night Marchers or anything? You know, they talk about?

RT: My house had. On Renton Road.

KM:  Your house had?

MS: I’ve never. I’ve never seen um.

RT:  The one that I was born and raised in.

JD:  Yeah [chuckles].

BaS: No, but they said on the graveyard on Fort Weaver, some people can see, when it’s like drizzling. There used to be cars that would just flip over out of nowhere. And they said because a procession would be going across the street.

JT: But is it like Lynn’s house? It is by, that’s that path?

MS: That’s the pathway.

BaS:  From the church, to the graveyard.

JT: My cousins, they’re not here, but their home is on the path. And they could hear, at night, you like chariot, oh you know, the horses.

RT: But you know that, even the Immaculate Conception Church, even the priest said, you can hear the galloping of the carriage. I would freak out. I would run away from it.

JD: Yeah, that’s how before, yeah?

KM:  Yeah.

JD: Get all kine stories, yeah.

KM: Yeah, well they say, the dry lands, from Puu o Kapolei, you know the hill. Kapolei Hill, come across here. In old, Hawaiian days, it was a place where the Akua, the ghost, used to run all over the place.

MS: Used to have here!

BaS:  Is it true that Honouliuli used to be a battle ground?

KM:  There was a battle there. And there’s a place in Honouliuli called Poohilo. It’s one of the old land areas at Honouliuli by the taro lands, it’s in the upper section where the old road cut across, the upper section is Poohilo. That’s named because the defeated warrior, or king, from Hawaii, Hilo, his head we put on top the stick right there.

Group: Ohh, wow. Eww.

BaS:  Ohh, that’s interesting.

KM: Yeah, but you know.

MS: Where was this?

KM: Poohilo at Honouliuli. Up at the taro, the wetlands.

JD:  Ohh, I didn’t know about that.

KM: So, you folks know, you said you would come out this side, gather limu and stuff.

MS: Yeah.

KM: Now, may I ask a question, and I know you’re a little young. Uncle’s the oldest one. You know, where what they call Hau Bush?

JD:  Yeah, yeah. Used to get all the seaweed down there.

KM: Just between sort of Hau Bush and White Plains, the fence, midway, there’s an old coral and cement, old Hawaiian-kine cement well. It’s still there today.

RT: There was a lot, isn’t it? That stone.

KM: Yes, yes. What I’m wondering is, up until the 1930s, if you look at old maps, there are two houses that were there. I’m wondering if you folks remember, where there any old houses still along the shore by your time when you came?

JD:  On the shore?

KM: Along the shoreline.

JD: I don’t remember.

MS:  Where is this?

KM: When you come out, when you leave what is Hau Bush, coming towards the fence at White Plains now, sort of mid-way between the Oneula Beach Park and the White Plains fence, basically where the lagoon marina was gonna puka out, but now no more, yeah?

Group:  Yeah.

KM: There is a wall made of coral stone with, you know how they made cement before days, they would bake the coral, pound it, and then mix it to make mortar, yeah?

JD:  Yeah.

KM: So it’s that kind of an old, and there was a sinkhole, a puka in the coral rocks, that used to have water in it. Well, there used to be two houses there up until the 1930s and I’m really curious to see if we can find out who lived there. Did you folks ever hear of the Kahalekulu family? Worked for the ranch.

BaS: Well, I used to rent from the grandma. The granddaughter bought a house from us.

KM: Yeah, Marissa.

BaS: Yeah, yeah.

KM: Yeah, well define, Marissa’s father’s coming home, he’s gonna be here on Wednesday. And we actually, we’re gonna go walk the shoreline, too. But he’s young like you, you know, he’s 10 years older than you. But he’s basically your age.

JT: Ohh, okay, okay, okay.

KM: You were born in…?

JT: ’55.

KM: Yeah ’55, yeah, so he’s born in ’56. So he’s one year younger than you. But from their family stories, I’m curious, you know, had to be that we should be able to find who the families were that were still living there. We assume it must have been with the ranch, you know.

KM: But you know, it’s so interesting, so important to talk story. And sometime, you know… So you’re leaving, though, you’re leaving you said, Sunday.

RT:  Sunday.

KM: This coming Sunday? Yeah. You know this has been such a wonderful, just to skim the story to talk story, you know. What we should do is we should try and sit down and we should try and talk story again sometime.

JD: [laughing]

KM: So you goin keep coming home, you know.

Group: [laughing]

BaS:  Their next trip back here hopefully will be February.

KM: Good, good. What I need to do is, you can give me aunty’s and your sister them’s, or your uncle them’s mailing address so we can send a copy of the CD. So you’ll have the recording, then, each of you will have the recording. What I’d like to do eventually, Onaona will transcribe the interview in a draft format. Well I’m going to close up now, but we’ll transcribe this and send this to you… [recorder off]

Group:  [continued discussion, and recorder turned back on]

KM: So the plantation, the plantation used to keep plenty records. The thing is, what we don’t know, I don’t know, is what happened to the plantation records. Now, where the management office was, there’s something the historical society or something, it says…

BaS: I don’t know, it’s the sad part. We have the railway, well the choochoo-train, so the manager’s house, they should make it like a museum.

KM: It is a historic landmark.

BaS: Because, you know where I live? It’s a historical preservation.

KM:  Yeah.

BaS: So it’s like how Lahaina they have all these museums, the choochoo-train running, but we don’t have. Nobody wants to stop in Ewa and have shave ice.

Group:  [chuckles]

KM:  Well, that’s one of the things why. What we’re trying to do with the Hoakalei Cultural Foundation, we have basically 30 acres of land that were set aside from Haseko’s development that have the old Hawaiian sites on it, house sites, salt making areas, agricultural stuff like that. And also stuff from the war. So what we’re hoping to do is we’re gonna build a small community museum where we can save these stories and try to collect and gather, you know… ’Cause I’m sure that people have photographs probably working sugar fields I bet before even your father folks probably found Hawaiian stones and things like that, you know?

JD: Oh, yeah, yeah.

KM: …So work with the community to build, and gather artifacts, photographs, the old plantation records and things like that. Fun stuff, you know, that’s a part of the history. We know that bango number… like do you remember your bango?

JD:  Ohh, I forgot already.

RT: Number 1365 was grandpa! Ahh! That was a long time ago! [laughing]

BaS:  She’s the one who made his bill high!

Group: [laughing]

RT: ’Cause every time I would go with grandpa, I mean grandma, used to go Ewa Plantation Shopping Basket, and then we go Murata’s, then Kay would ask, “Okay, what the bango number?” I go, “1365!” Now I’m 58, “1365!” [laughing]

MS:  And no one stole from each other, you know?

KM: Yeah, yeah. How different in those days, yeah?

MS:  They didn’t steal their number, they didn’t steal anything.

KM: Well of course, they all knew, right, the store knew who everybody was.

RT: Everybody knew.

KM:  How come you using 1365? Right? If you try use the wrong one.

RT:  And even if you walk in the store, they knew who you was.

BaS:  Yeah, her daughter ran away, at that age! They knew it was her daughter! She ran away from our house.

RT: That was horrible. And now how old is Nel? …34?

MS:  She’s 38.

RT: And they watched her. Because normally they see other family members, yeah? But they noticed, “Ohh, look at the baby?” So she was busy walking around…

JT: While everybody was going hysterical!

RT: So one of the ladies saw her and just kept an eye on her. Until I came in and I was so angry ’cause we was looking high and low! Afraid because the plantation trucks, big kind of…

JT: She walked! It was a long walk.

RT:  And when I saw her I just broke down.

JD: [laughing]

RT:  I was like, “Awww, are you okay?!”

MS: She wanted to go to church with them, because that’s what my mom does, she helps with the church. So they, she went, and then baby, we supposed to be taking care of her, but one thought the other one was watching her.

JT:  But dad was, too, he was fixing the car.

RT: But she went outside, and my dad was outside. And what happened was, when my dad was looking in the hood, that’s when she went sneak out. So, he didn’t know. We all didn’t know, we all assumed.

MS:  She was just determined to go to the store.

JT:  Yeah, she had a little purse.

RT: But the danger part, going across the street. And how we found out, one of the residents saw her and was like, “That’s the Shibuya granddaughter! Why is she walking by herself?!” So she came to our home and asked my dad, and all I hear is, “Jenny girl, where’s Shan?” I go, “She stay with you!” “No she’s not!” That’s when everybody went out of the house flying!

JD: [laughing]

MS:  Thank God it all worked out.

RT: ’Cause you could tell, anybody coming around, “Do you know where so-and-so lives?” “Ohh, yeah, just go down this road, they’re like the third house.” You know, now!

BaS:  Yeah, now we don’t know the neighbors.

MS:  Yeah, it’s horrible.

KM: Yeah, it is. It’s junk.

MS:  Sad, yeah.

BaS: But my son, he’s 27, and he told me, “Mom, thank you for raising me here.” Because he could run the fields and he could ride his bike because as he got older as a pre-teen he realized, because his friends were on the mainland and whatever, they didn’t have the freedom that he had, and everybody knew him. I could call one sister, “Did you see Shannon?” Or call my cousin around the corner, “Did you see Shannon?” Somebody was always watching. But you know, for him to tell my thank you, especially me being a single parent, that really made me feel good.

JD: [laughing] Oh boy.

KM: Ohh, thank you folks so much, this is a really good start. Barb knows how to get a hold of me. But, what I need is, if you’ll share, and your sisters, just the address just so we can have the CD and bring the CD back for you… [recorder off]

Group:  [continued discussion, and recorder turned back on]

KM: Wait, you were talking about Papipi, and that was old from when you, but that’s ’50s.

RT:  Right. I was still about maybe, I was still going to high school.

KM: But you said that you would go down Papipi Road?

RT:  Right.

KM:  To get to Kiku?

RT: Kiku Point. That fishing area right there.

JT:  Kiku Point!

JD:  Yeah, yeah.

RT:  So from Fort Weaver, we’d turn…

JD:  All the way to the end.

RT: Papipi Road, yeah, coming down all the way. Past Hau Bush, past CPC Beach.

KM:  Was it paved or was it…?

RT: It was rocky as can be! Go over the hump, keep on going, and we’d get to Kiku Point over there.

KM:  That’s not Kualakai, though?

RT: No, they called Kiku Point as far as I know. And then, going down, we coming this way, right? Our uncle, his younger brother, live in a little village on the right hand side, there were one, two, three… five houses.

BaS:  Oh, that’s the one with the big rock, yeah they had.

RT:  Yeah.

KM: Oh, where was this? Towards Kiku or here?

RT: Here. Oh, okay, Papipi Road, okay, we’re coming, we’re going to the beach. This side get houses, we’re coming, but here, there were lotta kiawe wood, but when you make that turn, my uncle house was the first. There was another house next to it. Behind there was a two-story house. Behind the two-story house was a piggery.

JD:  Yeah.

KM:  So this is where you’re talking about, by the piggery, which is basically just past Papipi Road, right?

RT:  Yes! That’s the one. And then there was a little house, and two more houses around the corner.

JT:  Waipa, Waipa. One Waipa?

RT:  Yeah!

JT:  They were the one the piggery people, right?

RT: They were the owners of the piggery.

MS: Is that where Uncle Rudy lived, Pohakupuna Road?

RT: He said, he was so drunk one night, he couldn’t find the key, he had to go bathroom. And so he went to pee at this big rock and somebody went go PATOCK [gestures, striking him]! And went come alive.

BaS:  He was wide awake!

RT: After he do that he said he stumbled into the house, slam the door, and he fell asleep on the floor. Then the next day he go, “Wow! What was that?!” So he told our grandma, the mom, she said, “See what happened! You no do that! You just no go pee any kine place!”

MS:  You have to say, “Excuse me!”

KM: Yeah, you have to go excuse yourself, yeah.

RT:  And after that, PATOCK!

KM: So, aunty, just to get an idea of what we’re talking about, um. You come to Papipi, I know where the piggery was, and I’ve got a photo I can show you folks an aerial photograph. ’Cause, was a big area! Cement floors on the piggery.

RT: Yeah! They had like 2 piggeries, and my sister said they were run by the Waipa family.

JT:  They were both Hawaiian, the husband…

MS:  But wasn’t the wife Japanese?

JT:  And then the [husband] was Hawaiian and I think the wife was Japanese.

BaS:  Yeah, they were big people.

JT: And, they lived right next to the piggery in the back. And there was another… they lived, and then next to my uncle, you goin up this way, I remember there was this two-story house, there were lot of crown flowers. And then you cross, and my uncle lived right there, right by the crossing of the road.

KM:  You know where Lion’s Club?

BaS: Yeah, the chicken farm.

KM: The chicken farm? Yeah was by there? The piggery was a little further down, yes?

RT: Yeah. And then sometimes the piggery, I guess when they let ’um go, they would come right behind my uncle’s fence. They would come up there and go, “KAWW KAWW!” And I go, “Oh my God! Uncle, the pig, you better tell the man!” And then here comes the Waipa man, “Tiny!” That was my uncle’s name. “No worry, no worry, I going let ’um go, I go pick ’um up.” “You better ’cause he’s snooching [gestures digging around]!” But, like I said, now, no more houses no more piggery.

KM: So Waipa had people working with him on the piggery, or?

RT: No. They had one daughter, only three of them. And they lived in the back, I wanna say, my uncle’s house, the two-story house, this way, and right behind the uncle’s piggery, you had to walk further in.

JD:  Yeah, yeah.

RT:  You remember?

KM:  I gotta get a map, so we can try to draw some of this out.

BaS: That site isn’t there. Well the one I think we’re thinking about, ’cause I think the Haseko wall is there now.

KM: Yes, but you know one of the preservation… you know, there’s one of the three preservation areas. There’s the one that’s on the White Plains side, then there’s the one in the middle. The kiawe is still there. And then there’s the other one, where the Kuapapa houses going go. That one is, the piggery is in there, and the cement, some of the cement foundations. But there’s also ancient Hawaiian house sites in there too.

OM: You better go take her.

RT: Because, one time, I think my uncle was saying too, he saw a man by the big rock. That rock, though had words on it, you know? Because uncle used to, he had a little garage, you know parking there, we would just hang out. And behind that garage there was a fence where the Waipa’s pigs, when he would let ’um go, would come up. But next to that, there was a driveway, and then the crown flower and then the two-story house, the Waipa… Across used to be another Filipino family, the Bernadas. They lived in a little cute house. After the cute house, there were two more houses there. That’s it. But, majority of the stones had writing on it.

KM:  Ohh, interesting.

JD: [laughing]

MS: I remember which house, now, across from McAngus house.

RT:  Yeah! That’s the one!

MS:  Okay.

KM: McAngus?

MS:  It’s a family name.

KM: Okay, that’s their last name?

MS:  Yeah, McAngus.

KM:  Okay, McAngus.

JT: Related to the Gabucos, next to the next house.

KM: Related to…

MS:  Gabuco.

KM: Gabuco.

BaS:  They’re gone, too, though.

RT:  Yeah, and their grandpa was a boxer, way back. Manu used to go see him.

JD:  He used to be a fighter. The plantation days.

KM: When are you back at work?

BaS:  Thursday, Friday. Then I’m off again on the weekend.

KM: I’m gonna print a photograph, couple of photographs for you so you can show your sister folks. Because these are 1960, ’60ish, aerial photographs, that show you piggery, a few of the houses you’re talking about. But you can also see the wetland, you know, that’s in the preservation area. The Kauhale preservation area.

BaS: Yes.

KM:  So, it’ll be nice for you to see because we can actually maybe see, “Ohh yeah, that must be the houses! Yeah?” So we can start to mark the houses a little bit.

RT: And you know, I was thinking about the chicken farm. When you’re going along Fort Weaver Road, coming into Ewa Beach, the chicken farm was on the left-hand side.

KM:  Yes. By Geiger?

RT:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s the one.

KM: Yeah, by Geiger.

RT: ’Cause I remember, our mom, we used to go pick eggs.

JD: [laughing]

RT:  Ho! I was sick and tired, every Friday we’d pick eggs. Dozens galore, for the family. Eggs, eggs, eggs!

JD: [laughing]

RT:  That’s all we did!

KM:  Ohhhh.

RT:  Yeah!

KM: Was the railroad track somewhere up there?

RT: Yes, right in front of our house.

JT:  It was operating while we were still in elementary.

RT:  We were so thrilled to see the train passing by.

BaS:  But I can find out if anybody knows.

KM: And you mentioned, it was Hawaiian families who lived by where the train museum is now?

BaS: Yeah!

KM: And they, so that was Hawaiian camp?

JT:  Ahuna.

BaS:  I know two of the girls, I can have them, Kaanehe and…

KM: Kaanehe?

BaS:  Um hum. That’s one of my best friends.

MS:  Ahia.

KM:  Ahia?

Group:  Ahia.

KM:  It would be wonderful if we could see if there was any families around.

BaS: Yeah, I get them.

MS:  Yeah! Aunty Jane is still alive.

KM:  Jane…

MS: Querubin.

BaS:  Aunty Ahia, was her maiden name.

KM:  But she’s not Kihewa, so she’s not Kihewa.

BaS:  Yeah, she’s in Ewa.

KM:  Okay, but not Aunty Jane Kihewa who works at… a different Jane. Yeah?

BaS: Yeah, Ahia Querubin.

KM:  Oh, Querubin, okay. Ohh, okay. Oh, wonderful. Sorry, I don’t want to take your family’s time anymore, this was good fun stuff. Thank you! [recorder off]

Thelma Genevieve Parish, a.k.a. Sister Parish, was born in 1918. She descended from prominent families in the history of Hawaii, and shared generational ties to the ili of Puuloa in Honouliuli Ahupuaa. She was educated as an anthropologist, and became a Catholic nun serving for 50 years as a teacher and school administrator with the Order of Sacred Hearts. Sister Parish was a lifelong student of history and until her passing in 2004, she was working on a manuscript of Hawaiian history. Unfortunately her work has been left incomplete.

Sister Parish’s knowledge of the Puuloa-Honouliuli lands and larger District of Ewa was rooted in her own family’s ties to the land, and she was recognized as an important resource for historical information on Ewa. Her experiences and genealogy also connected with other places around Oahu, and the interview transcript below includes important information pertaining to the sacred lands of windward Oahu. One of the memories shared speaks of the Pohukaina cave complex, which in some accounts has an entrance near the area of the Waipahu spring.

Arrangements for the 1997 interview were facilitated with the assistance of Sister Parish’s lifelong friend, Kupuna Arline Eaton and was originally conducted as a part of the preservation planning process for the Haseko cultural preserves along the Honouliuli shoreline. Release was granted on August 29, 1997, though readers are asked not to cite block quotes from this interview for any other purposes.

A summary of the topics discussed with Sister Parish are below:

•  The land has undergone traumatic changes.  With the passing of the sugar plantations, development has been allowed to occur without reason.
•  The Dowsett/Parish family home and ranching complex was based out of Kupaka, near the Puuloa coastline. The area was famed for many types of limu. Overharvesting and environmental change has caused much of the limu to disappear.
•  Kaahupahau was known as the shark goddess of Puuloa. People never feared sharks.
•  It is important to speak traditional place names and to care for the history of the land. Understanding the history helps us to understand why and how places are sacred. There is a great deal of native lore from the Ewa District. Sister discussed the name Waipahu as an example of how names are changed, and history lost.
•  Shares her manao on the significance of kapu (sacredness); management of resources as a way of traditional life; and the development of kuleana (responsibilities) for the land and resources in relationship to the pono (rights) which are being claimed in modern times.
•  Puuloa was famous for the anae holo (traveling mullet), and the health of the Puuloa fishery enriched the fisheries all around Oahu.
•  Recalled that there are traditions of a class of Hawaiians known as the “dog people.” These people resided in the caves and caverns of the coral flatlands of Honouliuli.
•  Caves, caverns, and skylights on the coral plains were used traditionally (though Sister Parish did not have personal knowledge of burial sites in the region); in some traditions, the ulu was first planted on Oahu in the open skylights of the Honouliuli Plains.

Interviewee  Thelma Genevieve Parish (TGP), with Arline Wainaha Puulei Brede-Eaton (AE)
Interviewer  Kepa Maly (KM)
Date and time  May 2, 1997, 1:10 p.m.

KM: Aloha and mahalo.

TGP:  Aloha no!

KM: Please, if you would share your full name, date of birth, and then if you would keep telling your story then.

TGP: I’m Thelma Genevieve Parish and I was born on May the 26th, 1918. So I’m somewhat  antiquated  [chuckles].

KM:  Blessed.

TGP: And I have known and taken a very vivid interest in my family, on both my father’s side, which was the Dowsett side. And my mother’s side which comes from the other side of the island in Waiahole-Hakipuu. So my grandmother, Mary Kaohinani Dowsett-Parish built one of the first homes in Kaimuki, when it was a very new subdivision in Honolulu. And as a member of the Dowsett family, she had inherited acreage down here in the area that we now call Ewa Beach. We never referred to the area as Ewa Beach in my younger days. It was always Kupaka [as pronounced].

KM:  Kupaka, and you heard that pronunciation?

TGP: Yes, Kupaka. And whenever we children, on Friday afternoons, we’d get home from school, we had our little duffel bags all packed because we were going to go to Kupaka, to spend the weekend. Now Kupaka was part of the ahupuaa of Puuloa. And my great grandfather owned, and I have to use that word in quotation marks because it’s refuted, or questioned as to the direct ownership. But he did, in quotes, own from the entrance to Pearl Harbor all the way to approximately, Campbell High School, [where it is located] today.

And he used that area which was quite barren, he used that area primarily as his fattening paddocks. Because he was into ranching and he had a ranch at Ulupalakua, on Maui, which he had acquired from the Makee family. And also, a ranch at Mikilua, which is below Lualualei. A part of the ahupuaa of Lualualei, on the other side of the Waianae mountain range, as it comes down to hit the sea on the southern coast. Then he also had a ranch in Leilehua. So these ranches were producing cattle and there were times when he would ship from Maui and would have to fatten the cattle before they could be slaughtered.

KM: Do you remember what the grazing material was then, down here, that made a good fattening ground?

TGP: I guess the kiawe beans.

KM:  So just the kiawe beans?

TGP: Kiawe beans and the haole koa.

KM:  Hmm.  Was that the predominant growth throughout the Kupaka-Puuloa, even into here, the Honouliuli area?

TGP:  Yes. Oh yes. It was primarily kiawe, the algarroba, and pa-nini, the klu [or kolu] bushes and the cactus, the haole koa, lots of it.

KM:  This is from your memories as a child, or even pre…?

TGP: No, my memories as a child and it must have been a little more dense probably, previous to my knowing Kupaka. However, the pasturage seems unlikely in our terms today, because it’s not meadow-like, but was just virgin country and the pipi, the cattle were turned loose. And then there were divisions so that you had one paddock following another paddock, following another paddock. So when we left Honouliuli, we were coming through the tail end of the cane lands, then we’d come to a gate, we’d have to stop and get out. My father was very persnickety about his Model T-Ford, so it wasn’t to be scratched [chuckles], and so we had to break or hack-hack at the branches of the kiawe trees that had grown over the road after our last visit. And we’d come down, and I’d have to jump out of the car again, and open the next gate, wait until he’d gone through and close that gate. I think we had to do that three or four times.

KM: Hmm. So from Honouliuli boundary, with Puuloa, coming in?

TGP:  Yes.

KM:  And was your roadway…?

TGP:  Coral, one lane [chuckles].

KM:  Uh-hmm. Were the gates, was it wire, uwea fencing? Or was it pa pohaku [stone walls], some, do you remember?

TGP: Mostly wire fencing. Primarily the barbed wire. Not the fancy squared off kinds of fencing, barbed wire. And strung from one kiawe wood post to the next kiawe wood post, to the next, and on down. And the gates were swung from larger posts, embedded in the coral. And the gate swung only in one direction, and you had to park and then drive through, wait and then close the gate, and then go on to the next gate. My grandmother’s property was always… sort of located by the height of the windmill. She had the only windmill in the area and it was a landmark.

KM: You know, on the old map that we were looking at earlier?

TGP: Hmm.

KM: Alexander’s 1873 map, Register Map number 618, we see [opening the map]… See the watering hole here? [pointing to sites identified on the map] In fact, see, this says “stone wall” coming in by the salt works?

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM:  Was Kupaka the area of your houses, and was it on the shore also, or…?

TGP:  Kupaka is now, as I knew it then, is now Parish Drive.

KM: Ahh, okay, that’s good to know.

TGP:  And so we referred to that whole area… the area we went through, before reaching my grandmother’s country home, was that of Mitsuyasu.

AE: Yes, that’s right.

TGP: We had a charcoal area.

KM:  Oh kiawe charcoal.

TGP: A charcoal burning establishment.

AE:  What year did they come down here?

TGP: Mitsuyasu must have been here before 1925. I know, I found my grandmother’s records, and she built her home in ’25.

AE:  So they had to come around that time.

TGP:  And they must have been… Mitsuyasu could have been here before that.

KM: So your house area… [pointing to the locations on the map] if the salt works were up here, and this is a walled enclosure, and there are some small houses indicated here.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM:  But your grandmother’s place was down, you think, on this end?

TGP:  Yes.

KM: [marking location on map] Towards the end of the stone wall here?

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM:  Ahh. And Mitsuyasu was doing the kiln…

TGP:  Charcoal.

KM: Yes. Was down in Puuloa also. As a lease from your grandmother, do you think?

TGP: No… well, he could have had a lease, from what we called then, “The Dowsett Company.” Because the Dowsett Company, consisted of the heirs of my great grandfather, James Isaac Dowsett. His businesses were incorporated into what we knew as the Dowsett Company. Now, the Dowsett Company then, had control of the area from Fort Weaver, which was given to the United States, from the lands that my grandmother and grandfather owned. So it was [chuckles]… it was taken back. My guess is that my [great] grandfather acquired these lands primarily because the Alii, or the Kingdom needed money, he would advance money, or give them what they needed as they approached him and then he was repaid in land. And so we don’t know the exactness of the titles, the land titles for the areas that we considered to have been his.

KM: Uh-hmm. As we look at the Puuloa area here, you see the ahupuaa boundary line that comes up, the fishponds, fisheries, the salt works, and if we come out towards Oneula, do you have recollections of some of the resources? Or were there families out here and things as well?

TGP: It was… my guess is, that there were few… it was very, very unpopulated. Not at all populated. And I often wondered where the Puuloa salt works were. My guess was, as I was growing up and heard about them, that they were to the south of Fort Weaver. But I’d been told recently that there were more, up off the West Loch.

KM: That’s correct, yes.

TGP: And I do remember my family referring to West Loch as being grandpa’s as well. Not so much the water part, but the lands across from West Loch. So that would bring us right directly to Oneula and a little bit further than Campbell High School.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Yes. Was anyone still… what did you hear about the salt works, and was anyone still making salt when you were a child, anywhere out here?

TGP: That, I wouldn’t know. I’ve accumulated a good deal of additional knowledge through my own research, and so now, it’s hard for me to delineate and pinpoint what I knew as a child, and what I learned as an adult through research.

KM: Uh-hmm. [tape off, someone knocked on door; tape back on] We’re back on, you’d mentioned that you have researched a great deal, so this is clear in our interview. You of course, because of your love of and interest in the land, as a Hawaiian and as a… Well, you’ve traveled quite a bit as well. In your understanding, was the salt works, did it play an important part in the history of this land?

TGP: Yes it did. In fact the salt works were the focal point of the ownership, of my great grandfather’s ownership. E. B. Scott, in his Saga of the Sandwich Islands mentions it, and he’s quoting from someone else, that the salt works were a very prominent part of the economy and the early industrialization enterprises.

KM: Sure, so was the salt used for hides and the salting and preparation of meats and things?

TGP: My great-grandfather commercialized in salt, and sold it. According to research, a good deal of the salt that was produced on Oahu was sold to the fishing fleets that would come from Alaska and take it back to Alaska for the salting of the salmon.

KM: Ahh, interesting. When we were looking at this map a little earlier, it was also interesting to note that there was, what looks to be [marking on map], almost to be like a little kahe or weir or something that came in off of Puuloa. Had you heard at all, about how water was gathered into the salt ponds? Did they dig holes and make…?

TGP: No, this part I have never been able to research in depth, simply because we haven’t had access to maps of this vintage. But this map seems to indicate, and I would say, in common sense, it would tell us that they had to bring the salt water in from the lower end, or away from the entrance to Pearl Harbor simply because the outer shoreline is too high. And they wouldn’t have been able to flood the salt ponds from the south shore. But, bringing it in from the east shoreline, and into the salt pans, seems much more sensible.

KM: [copies of Register Map 618, were given to kupuna Thelma and Arline] Looking at the map, it was interesting to see that it looks like there was this little channel or estuary like that fed into the area of the salt works.

TGP:  Uh-hmm. I don’t believe that anything remains today of the salt works.

KM:   Hmm, yes, even many these fishponds along here have been destroyed. May I ask, if you’ve heard, because one of the things that I’ll send to you, that I think you’ll be very interested in… As I was going through the original Mahele texts, I found… and see the problem is, because the kuleana weren’t awarded, they weren’t recorded in the final Indices, and that why people don’t think that any land was claimed in Puuloa. But I found a list of about 12 or 15 individuals who in the Native Register of claims, claimed aina along this area of Puuloa. But by the time the Native Testimonies for awards came up, all of these individuals relinquished their claims here and moved in, particularly, a lot of them moved into the Waikele-Waipio area, you know Loko Eo.

TGP:  Ahh the Waipio area.

KM: Which I thought, was really interesting. Did you hear of any early families living anywhere out here at all, as a child?

TGP: Never. The only other habitation, if I can call it as such, was my cousin’s country home, and she was the daughter of Samuel Dowsett. And Sam Dowsett had an old country home down in this area. And then beyond to the west of my grandmother’s holdings was where the holdings of my grand uncle Alika, that’s Alexander Cartwright Dowsett. And his old home was visible from the beach area outside my grandmother’s home. So those were the only two homes I know of, other than Mitsuyasu who was further beyond.

KM: Uh-hmm. So coming out towards Oneula, like that, or even to Kualakai, did you hear…?

TGP: No, not that far. We weren’t, no. I doubt… even now, in picking up some of the research, nothing seems to resemble anything that I had known as a child. It’s all… well, this was all just wild country, all along the shoreline.

KM: Yes. Were there cattle then, all throughout your Puuloa lands, as you’d said, because they were using it as…?

KM: How about into the Oneula, or below the sugar fields and out towards even Lae Loa (Barber’s Point), was someone running cattle out there also, that you recall?

TGP: I would say that it was a good possibility; however, you can’t overstock the area. The area hadn’t much to offer in the first place.

KM: Yes.

TGP: And so they’d probably move the cattle, pipi, for the pasturage, and keep rotating. But, maybe the present names, like we have the name Pa Pipi Road [cattle corral], which seems to indicate that that was used for pipi.

KM: Yes.

TGP: But it’s really hard to determine just… well, it’s hard for me to determine how much of this area was being utilized, and where. I asked Arline frequently what she remembers of her father and grandfather’s experiences and she as a little girl coming down to what we knew of as Kupaka, every weekend.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Yes.

AE: But, you know, the cattle were around in this area too [pointing to the Oneula area of the map], but like you said, I’m just assuming that your grandfather owned that property because Papa had to bring the cattle down in this area.

KM: Hmm, even into Honouliuli.

TGP:  Probably round ‘um up and move them…

AE: Yes, move them, every weekend, he’d move them to different places.

TGP: Let the pasture come back.

KM: Was there a relationship between Dowsett and Campbell at all, that you ever heard of? Honouliuli was Campbell, eh?

TGP:  Part of Campbell’s.

AE:  Part.

KM: And I imagine, that if your grandpa, or father them, on the Dowsett side, were going to use the land, they may have come to some agreement?

TGP: Well, maybe it was just like the old west, you just used what was not blocked off [chuckles].

KM: Hmm. But, it’s obvious, in your description of coming in here, going through three or four gates…

TGP:  Yes.

KM: That there were obvious pa uwea, the wire fences or kinds of things like that.

TGP:  Uh-hmm, yes.

AE:  Yes.

TGP:  And there was a definite scheduling.

KM: Hmm, rotating eh?

TGP:  Rotating and scheduling. I don’t know where grandpa Dowsett’s slaughterhouse was, the old Hawaii Meat Company.

AE: Yeah, he had a slaughterhouse, the Hawaii Meat Company, that was part of his.

TGP: Wasn’t that up in… [thinking]?

AE:  Up near Middle Street. You know where the bus depot is?

TGP: That’s a continuation of Puuloa. Because, they weren’t able to haul these pipi anywhere, they had to drive them. So the slaughterhouse had to be at a convenient distance.

KM:  Yes. As a child, do you remember, were there good areas for limu, like lipoa or, or fish like oio…

TGP:  Oh! Ewa, Kupaka was noted for its limu. The limu banks would pile up as high as three feet along the shoreline.

KM: Along the area fronting here [pointing to the ocean shore fronting Kupaka]. So there is a papa, a reef flats or something?

AE:  Oh yes.

TGP:  Yes, but it’s not visible.

KM:  Oh submerged?

TGP:  Yes, in fact, you’d think there was no reef area because there is no line of breakers. But the limu was extremely plentiful [said with emphasis].

KM: So there was good limu; all kinds, or a particular variety?

TGP: All kinds.

AE:  Yes.

TGP:  And the manauea was particularly important.

KM:  So manauea. Was there wawaeiole?

AE:  Yes.

TGP:  Yes.

KM: Lipoa?

TGP:  Plenty.

KM: Kohu?

AE: Yes, limu kohu.

TGP:  Yes.

AE:  There’s still plenty when you go to Barber’s Point, because nobody goes in. They don’t have access. I just got some limu kohu, Mary went to make some.

KM:  So was that a popular occurrence, friends and family might come down to gather limu or fish when you were young children?

TGP:  Occasionally, it was almost untouched, as we knew it.

KM: And you said it was a much as three feet thick?

TGP: Three feet above the sand level.

AE:  Yes.

TGP: And beautiful white sand beaches in the Kupaka area, what we would call Parish Drive now. That was all beautiful white sand beach. And then, noted for its limu and noted for its cat’s eyes, those little shells, the little door that flaps, opens up.

KM:  Yes, on the cone-type shell.

AE: Sister, all of that Hailipo and all of that, that was all Dowsett land eh?

TGP:  Yes.

KM:  Hailipo?

TGP:  Hailipo.

AE: Because they had the sign out there when they first opened up the subdivision.

TGP: Well, also too, my grandmother was able to acquire a good deal more property than her original acreage in Kupaka. So the area now flanking Pa Pipi Road, at the end of Pa Pipi Road, was all hers.

KM: The makai end?

TGP:  All her development. Ching was the developer in that area, and it was all in leasehold.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

TGP:  So that was an additional area that my grandmother had.

KM:  Towards Oneula?

TGP:  Towards Oneula, what we call Hau Bush now. Before you get into Hau Bush, at the cul-de-sac, at the end of Pupu Road. But she had that additional area.

KM:  Did you folks, aside from gathering limu, and perhaps some fishing out here, did you remember traveling down along the coast into the Oneula area?

TGP: Not that far. It would be… see, the white sand beach ends, maybe two blocks, I’m estimating, two blocks beyond my grandmother’s place. And then, there was a coral shelf.

KM: Yes.

TGP:  And the coral begins, and that coral shelf runs all the way down to Oneula.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

TGP: Before you begin to see some sandy beach areas again. And it was densely thick with wild [chuckles] vegetation, you just couldn’t go through it. The cattle could, but it wasn’t a place that we would be allowed to play. It was far too far away. And there was no purpose in anyone going down there. It was easier to go by boat, if we were going to go down the shoreline.

KM: Uh-hmm. Were there good fishing areas out here?

TGP: Lobsters. We had a Filipino yard man who would come periodically to clean up and all, and over the weekends, he would put on his tiny little goggles [gesturing single lenses over each eye], right up against his eyes, and his cotton gloves.

Then he’d go off with his big gunny sack and by the time he got back, the gunny sack was full of lobsters. All he had to do was reach into the lobster holes and pick them up. They were so plentiful.

AE: Yeah.

TGP: Lots and lots of fish and lots of lobsters. And I don’t remember any sharks in the area. There was no reason for them to come in, there wasn’t any pollution of any sort that would attract them.

KM: So, you’ve mentioned sharks, and of course, Puuloa is famed, “Alahula Puuloa, he ala hele na Kaahupahau” [The trails of Puuloa are those traveled by Kaahupahau]

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: The shark goddess.

AE:  Yes.

KM: Were there still stories at all being told?

TGP: Well yes, but that was into the Pearl Harbor area. I don’t know of sharks being a threat when we went swimming, and we were always on the beach, and into the water.

AE: Yeah. But like sister said, the growth is all dense in this area. Mekia, Major Kealakai’s boy, he and I would come walk up, you know where it’s all rocky?

KM: Ae.

TGP:  Uh-hmm, and you’d walk the shoreline.

AE:  Yes the trails over here [pointing to the map in the area of Oneula-Kualakai].

TGP:  That’s right you used the pipi trails to come up.

KM: So Major Kealakai’s moopuna?

AE: His son, we’d play together.

KM: His name was?

AE:  Mekia was his name. He’s passed away already.

KM:  Were they still talking… Now your father’s name was?

TGP: My father’s name was James Arthur Parish, and he was the son of Mary Kaohinani Dowsett-Parish, and her husband, Leonard Arthur Charles Parish. And my grandfather Leonard came from Wales in England. He came out as a young man and wooed my grandmother I suppose [chuckles].

KM: Now, you’d mentioned that some of your ohana, was on this side, the Ragsdales of Hilo vicinity?

TGP: Yes, this was Annie Green Ragsdale was the wife of James Isaac Dowsett. And James Isaac Dowsett was the first Caucasian child born in Honolulu, that was of non-missionary stock. And his father and mother… his father was Captain Samuel Dowsett, and his mother was Mary Bishop Dowsett. And Captain Samuel Dowsett had resigned his commission in the British Navy and had gone to Australia and married Mary Bishop. He bought a boat and was leaving Australia, and his first child was born on Melville Island. So she was called Deborah Melville Dowsett, and that was the first of grandpa Dowsett’s generation. And then they came up here, intending to go on to the northwest United States, but instead, they came into Honolulu and never left. And so my grandpa Dowsett was born then, in Honolulu.

KM: Ohh. And your mother’s name?

TGP: My mother’s name was Libby Peck. She was from the other side of the island of Oahu, Windward Oahu. She was Libby Peck-Parish. She married the oldest boy of Mary Kaohinani Dowsett-Parish, my father, who was James Arthur Parish. My mother hailed from the windward side, where she was hanai to the kahu, the kahuna nui who was in charge of all the sacred lands from Lae-o-ka-oio in Kualoa, all the way along through to Waikane, Waikane-Waiahole.

KM:  So this hanai papa, grandfather…

TGP: Was the kahuna nui of that whole area. And that area has a good deal of history to it, a great deal of history.

KM: Hmm. May I ask, because you’d mentioned that mama’s, I guess maiden name was Peck?

TGP:  [smiling]

KM: What was the Hawaiian line that comes into here?

TGP: Mother’s mother was Hattie Mii-Peck. And Mii was the family name of my grandmother’s people, from Hakipuu. And that would be my grandmother’s parents, they passed away when the children were quite young, so they were divided up among other members of the family and were raised by others. And so my grandmother, my mother’s mother was hanai, or raised by Ka-uku Kala. And Ka-uku Kala was the kahuna nui of the sacred lands [in the period ranging from around 1860 to 1890]. And his wife was Kaakau-a-lani, and she was very, very petite. But, they lived in Waikane, and raised my mother as a god-send so to speak. Simply because it was “a la mode” at that time to have a hapa haole child, a hapa haole moopuna. And Ka-uku Kala wanted, by all means to have a hapa haole hanai [chuckles].

KM: [laughs] “A la mode.”

AE: Cute yeah.

TGP: [chuckles] And so my grandmother, obligingly had an affair with this haole who was in love with her, but with whom she wanted nothing to do, and so to satisfy the hanai parents, she had an affair with this haole from Great Britain, and I, to this day, don’t know his name. My mother was never able to find out, but he was a British businessman who came in and out of the islands, and somewhat kept tabs of mom as she was growing up, but never approached her, never spoke to her. So We don’t really know who my mother’s father was. But then after venturing with the second love of her life, who was my grandmother’s Heeia boyfriend, who was pure Hawaiian, she had another son by him, who became, my mother’s half-brother. And then the third person she married, married, question mark, was Solomon Peck. And Solomon Peck was the youngest brother of the three Peck brothers, who had come from Germany and settled here. There was Uncle Eli Peck, and then my grandfather who was Solomon, and uncle [thinking], oh, we always referred to him as the Hilo uncle. He was manager of the bank, must have been Bishop Bank in Hilo. So those were the three Peck brothers.

KM: It’s so interesting. I’m sure you must have been hearing stories, like the value of fisheries, or relationships of land, like, as mama was hanai to Ka-uku Kala [pauses]. These histories are so important, and that we remember land use and relationships…

TGP: Ka-uku Kala was very fond of mama, extremely fond of mama, she was his punahele. And he wanted to expose her to everything she know about her culture, without really teaching her in any formal manner, the intricacies of the kahuna line, the priesthood. And so he exposed her to all that she be aware of without really informing her. And we found out years later that he bestowed upon her the priesthood. We weren’t ever sure of that, in fact, we hardly ever thought of it until we met her friend on the Big Island, who assured us that mama had received, had had this bestowed, the priesthood upon her. But she was never educated in the priesthood, temple trained or anything like that.

KM: Ae. What was the sense, even here, and this is appropriate, coming back to Puuloa, the relationship to the land, often the priesthood was associated with caring for, and calling upon the abundance, the growth, the proper rains so that the crops would grow. To call so that the abundance of the ocean, the limu or the fish, would come back. Was there a sense of…?

TGP:  Caring, yes.

KM: In fact today, there is so much talk about “native rights,” and…

TGP: Yes, but they are caring things, in my estimation, a little too far. Because the makaainana were never in possession of any “rights.” They kept within, or had to keep within their areas and if they were allowed to go into the sacred lands or into the oceans and all, it was only with permission. They knew their areas. They kept within their areas. And they didn’t, in my estimation, gather from here, there, and everywhere. They didn’t take liberties. I don’t think that their mode of life necessitated their going out of, or beyond their ahupuaa, where they were born.

KM: Ae. That makes sense, it falls in line with the writings of individuals like Kamakau or Ii and others.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: You have rights of certain accesses within your own ahupuaa.

TGP:  Right.

KM:  But, the responsibility was that if you gather, you care for…

TGP:  Yes.

KM:  …the resources. Is that right?

TGP:  Yes, oh yes, yes.

KM: And you didn’t go, “Ahh, look that limu is more ono over in Honouliuli, so I’m going to leave Puuloa now and take from Honouliuli.”

TGP: I don’t think that even entered their minds. This idea of gathering from here, there, or anywhere. And Ka-uku Kala was a very, very famous fisherman. And he fished the waters from Mokolii all the way beyond to Kaneohe Bay.

KM: So he fished all in to the Mokapu, Kaneohe Bay, and into the other side as well?

TGP:  No, no, not that far. He would go the distance that he could go alone in his canoe, beyond Mokolii, into the deep water. And then the women gathered the limu and the shellfish and all from the area within their ahupuaa, because actually, the ahupuaa extended to the reef. But there was nothing of this transient gathering from here, there, and everywhere.

KM: Is this something that you remember hearing a little bit about also?

TGP: This idea of “gathering rights” sounds so extremely fictitious to me. I don’t know… I think it has come about through the need of the present entertainers to go beyond what would normally be available to them.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

TGP:  And now are declaring that they had rights to go anywhere.

KM: Hmm. It is very different. This is interesting, when you talk about Ka-uku Kala, this kupuna and his fishing. Because he was kahuna nui…

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM:  …and he cared for these sacred lands. Was Kualoa a special place traditionally?

TGP:  Oh yes!  The five ahupuaa, from Ka-lae-o-ka-oio all the way to Waiahole, those five ahupuaa are the sacred lands of Oahu.  And they were Ka-uku Kala’s domain, they were his responsibility. He was the kahuna nui of the sacred lands and that priesthood had come to him. Now Kualoa is, in my estimation, a fabricated name.

KM: Oia [is that so]?

TGP: And I really wonder what its actual origin is [pauses to get something to drink]…

KM: So Ka-uku Kala cared for those sacred lands, from Ka-lae-o-ka-oio to Waiahole, and the fisheries into the Kaneohe Bay, up to Mokapu. Did you ever hear anything about Mokapu and the fisheries, or the lands there at all.

TGP: I’ve become interested in Mokapu, simply because I’ve had to research Koolau Poko. I was asked to conduct a Hawaiian Civic Clubs Tour of the windward side, and they told me they thought we should go from the Pali down to Mokapu. And I said, “You’re not going to the sacred Lands?” And “Ohh!” I said, “Of course, you can’t go to windward Oahu via the Pali, without any kind of a tour having a beautiful climax at these sacred lands.” And so that’s how, I’ve come to research all of that Mokapu area. And researched it simply because I had to know a little bit more than the people I was talking to [chuckles].

But I am bewildered at the amount of knowledge and no knowledge of Mokapu. The group that seems to claim some kind of priesthood relationship with Mokapu is the group that was headed by a Kahuna named Sam Lono, out of Haiku. And I know them, and I’ve been very nicely treated by them, and respected, but I just don’t know how… I can understand why they would pick Mokapu as an important place, simply because the stories that center around Ulupau. Of Kane having selected that spot to have created the first man and first woman, however, like many, many, many of our Hawaiian stories, we must take them with a barrel of salt.

KM: Ae. And the reason would be then, that this account of Kane and the first man are perhaps…?

TGP: They probably originated long before the Hawaiians came here. And when the Hawaiians did reach areas, they remembered and then localized their stories.

KM: Ahh, so what you’re saying is that this legendary account, possibly, may not have been directly associated Mokapu, Ulupau, Kahakahakea, and…

TGP:  Hawaii Loa.

KM:  Ae, Hawaii Loa. But that the names were carried and brought and then…?

TGP:  Attached.

KM: Attached to the areas. Have you heard, or what is your thought or consideration that some of these moolelo, possibly kaao have been influenced; just as the language is being influenced today, anglosized [from earlier comments by Aunty, regarding changes in the Hawaiian language today]. Is there a possibility that some of these moolelo, kaao bring in the Christian, some more recent beliefs or things…?

TGP: I don’t think that we have anything that is pure today. Anything that is purely Hawaiian. What we have today, are the mere remnants of vast, vast knowledge that came with the Polynesians at various eras and turns through their history, and became a part of what we now fictitiously call “Hawaiiana.” It became a part of Hawaiiana simply because Hawaii had to have a beginning.

KM: Ae. You bring up such an interesting point [end Side A; begin Side B]… The fragments. Look at what John Papa Ii’s title of his history was, I’ve gone through the Hawaiian-language newspaper and seen it. It was “Na Hunahuna Moolelo Hawaii,” The fragments of Hawaiian History.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: So even at his time, he saw that there was this great… and of course, in his time, they were watching thousands of the people die in short periods of time because of the diseases.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM:  Of course, that’s where Mokapu comes in. Your hanai great grandfather…

TGP:  Uh-hmm, Ka-uku Kala.

KM: Yes Ka-uku Kala was of a few survivors, particularly of a priestly line, it seems.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: This kahuna nui that cared for these sacred lands. And it’s obvious that it was important enough to his generation, even though so many transitions were occurring in the Hawaiian history, and the condition of the people, that it was still passed on to him. And he sought to at least expose your mother to these histories.

TGP: Yes. And he wanted his punahele to have acquired something his, however, he told, when asked by his friends, he told his friends very definitely, that he was not going to pass on the priesthood to any of his sons. And he had four sons. Simply because it would be too dangerous. They would never live up to all the protocol, all the kapu. They could never, in their style of life, as it had changed, they could never be faithful to every iota of the priestly does and don’ts, all the kapu. And so he had oki the priesthood and he disposed of his gods. My mama was sitting up in her hau-tree tree house when Ka-uku Kala took his gods, and she knew, just what he had done with them. But that was pau.

KM:  Hmm. And mama them, were they living in Hakipuu at that time, or…?

TGP: Mama was still in Waikane. See, Ka-uku Kala’s home was at the end of Kamaka Lane. And Kamaka Lane is almost the division line between Waikane and Hakipuu.

AE: The stories are so beautiful.

KM: Yes. You’d mentioned that you took this group of people, the civic club, and you told them they had to “see the sacred lands also.”

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: And earlier, you had said that you had a thought that perhaps the name Kualoa was something that…?

TGP: I have wondered about the origin of that name, because in some of the references the original name was Pali-ku. And Pali-ku has a close relationship with the priesthood, because there was the priesthood of Pali-ku, and not necessarily because of the escarpment or the cliffs, but simply because the priesthood was called Pali-ku. Now another possibility of this Kualoa name, is, in my thinking, “Akua-loa.” And very often, just as we have in Kealakekua, “akua” is abbreviated to “kua.” And Akualoa was the god that was carried in the Makahiki, the large, or long god. And the Makahiki rights occurred in that area.

KM: That was the culminating point, yeah.

TGP: That’s right. And Pohukaina, the great burial cave was entered from that end of the Kanehoalani range.

KM: Ahh, very interesting.

TGP: Sorry, we’re far away from Puuloa [chuckling].

AE: I know, I told him, I said “She is so interesting.” She’s going to run another tour.

KM:  Was Ka-uku Kala, ’cause, you’d brought up the lineage, this priesthood of Pali-ku, was Ka-uku Kala in your understanding perhaps the last formal kahu in that line?

TGP: Probably in… [thinking] I can say definitely, yes. [Aunty coughing, tape off and back on]

KM:  We were just talking a little bit about some of the Akua-loa, Kualoa, some of that thought about the priesthood and it’s so interesting.

Of course we’re bouncing around a little bit, and I’m thinking that maybe as we talk, other thoughts will come to mind. And while the tape was off, we were just talking once again, a little bit about some of the native “rights” or “traditional rights” in gathering, and you said that you noticed that Kupaka now, as an example, whereas before there was three feet thick beds of limu, now…?

TGP: Nothing. There’s… in fact, we’ve seen people walk the beach, or go along in the low tide on their tummies in the water, diving and plucking the very, very, tiniest of the limu growths.

KM: Hmm. So the old system of kapu, restricted seasons and gathering, and when you didn’t go out, had some intelligence to it eh?

TGP: It was the real means of conservation, they would have nothing, had they not had their kapus. And they knew that, and no one resented these kapus and no one attempted to sneak around them.

KM: Hmm, they were working within their own lands, the places their families were associated with, traditionally.

TGP: Uh-hmm. If they didn’t look after them, they had nothing. So they had to look after the resources and take care of them. And I don’t think that our Hawaiian people were unhappy under the kapu system. They were perfectly content, they didn’t know, they were not in a position to make comparisons. They didn’t know there was a better way. It was their way.

KM:  Was it better [chuckles]?

TGP: Well, they didn’t… the point of comparison was eventually thrust upon them and they were taught and told that the old way was no good, and that they could no longer be the “pagans” that they were admitted to. Then they began to look to something else. But, I think that awareness was fostered and perhaps forced upon them. The awareness of, “Well, there’s something else besides what we know.”

KM: Well, I think this is an important point also, coming back to how your kupuna lived. They lived on an island, within an ahupua‘a, and each island and ahupua‘a had its wealth of resources, but it was limited. So you learned how to manage and care for it.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: You take too much today, you starve tomorrow, it makes great sense. So today we see people come in to gather, even the smallest… pulling the rock, the limu, or take the last of the fish. And you’d mentioned the ula, the lobster that were out here and things, and of course there was this wealth of fishponds out here. Were you folks still gathering anae or awa, anything out in these areas? And did the cowboy’s families go traveling places that you heard of and gather fish or things like that?

TGP:  Not… that would all be conjecture on my part. I would have to guess, simply because it didn’t ever, ever come into my range of experience, having other people in the area. You see, by the time I was growing up, Pearl Harbor was already established and the old Hawaii was long gone from the area.

KM: Yes. [speaking to aunty Arline] Aunty did you share that you couldn’t even take a canoe… Do you remember when you were a child, could you still go in here and canoe or boat or anything? Or had the closed down?

TGP:  By the military.

AE:  Uh-hmm. But I noticed, that they would allow the old… especially on your papa’s ranch, they would let them net fish.

TGP: Yeah, in the old days.

AE:  And they allowed them to go.

KM:  Anae like that?

AE:  Yeah. They’d go in there.

TGP: But then, Fort Weaver wasn’t built up as it is today.

AE: Oh no.

TGP:  And you had access to the fishponds.

AE:  ’Cause you had to in among the kiawe trees and come along Waipahu and on down Honouliuli, so in this area was like nobody.

KM: So, where the salt works was and like where your house was, everything is bulldozed and knocked down? Is that correct, there’s no walls or anything left of the salt works, that you know of?

TGP: I’ve often wondered in going through that area, where there salt works were located, and I think they were located somewhat in the vicinity of the firing ranges now. They have some practice ranges out there. And just studying the contour of the land and that’s probably where they were located, and probably inland from the shoreline in that general area. Which is the entrance of Fort Weaver. And probably extended over into what is now the park.

AE:  Yes.

KM:  Which park?

TGP:  The Ewa Beach Park.

AE: Puuloa Park, they’ve put the name back to Puuloa.

KM: Ae.

AE: We’re trying to get Kimo Pelekane put back too.

TGP: [chuckles] Kimo Pelekane.

AE: That’s her grandfather.

TGP: My great grandfather was known by the native as Kimo Pelekane, and everyone called him Kimo Pelekane. He knew Hawaiian as well as he knew English, and he was a member of the House of Lords, in the old legislature. He would caution the Hawaiians in their wanting to promulgate new laws, and record. “If you say it this way, be careful, because if you say it this way, it’s going to mean this to the poe haole. But if you say it this way, this is what you mean, so you say it this way. This is your intent.”

KM: Hmm. What is your sense, there are a few sites that appear to be ancient, or early Hawaiian sites.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Some kahua hale, like, some pa, small enclosures.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: And at one place, and aunty Arline, I think you went there, there is a kahua [platform]…

AE: Yeah.

KM: [pointing out the size] … elevated from this wall, where the door is, it’s at least this big [roughly 12 × 12], squared. So you have a sense of… and this may be another part of it, did the sugar company, when they did their work, were they in the practice of building up nice stone mounds, or…?

TGP: Oh, well, it all depends. When they would clear sugar land, rather than cart the rock away, they would pile them up, and plant around them, so you weren’t aware of those mounds of rock until the cane was cut or burned. Then you became aware of them. I remember this down in Kohala.

KM: Yes. Here, behind Oneula, among the various sites, one of the places is a kahua, an elevated platform, that is about this big.

AE: Yeah.

KM: In fact it’s mostly this coral, limestone-type of walls, you know. Do you remember hearing anyone talk about any old Hawaiian sites that had been mentioned, or that the cowboys, you know, spoke of?

TGP: I’d never been personally involved in any of the ancientness of Ewa Beach. But, through my research, I can readily understand how it was. I don’t believe it was a heavily populated area because of the lack of fresh water. So it could have been an area of periodic habitation.

KM:  Ae, seasonal, coming down to…

AE:  Like fishing.

TGP:  Yes fishing.

AE:  Spending time.

KM:  Ahh, gather paakai.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM:  Dry fish like that.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

TGP:  And at the proper seasons.

KM: Ae. It’s interesting, and of course, the kupuna were so naauao, how they were able to live off of the land. Even what we wouldn’t drink today, the wai kai…

TGP: Yes they could tolerate it.

AE: The brackish water.

TGP: They could tolerate the brackish water. I know that the area also, and this is from research, was famous for its “dog people” [3]. You know, there was a caste, or a type of people, who had dog’s tails and this area was supposed to have been one of the areas that they inhabited. And they lived in the pits, underground.

KM: Ahh, and there are such things as hula ilio, the dog chants and hula for the ilio, like that.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: And my understanding is that the ilio was a form of Ku, they were Ku associated. The cloud forms of the dog like that.

TGP: These were actually people and they evidently… I was reading about their having been very, very ferocious warriors. So they would join the ranks of the chiefs in battle and then they were seen in some of the… seen by people who had the fortune or misfortune of viewing the oio, the night marchers. And they were seen participating in the night march.

KM: Is Puuloa a place that’s known for night marchers?

TGP:  I don’t know, but I would certainly assume so.

KM: As a child, you never remembered hearing the huakai po come by, personally?

TGP:  My mother, out at Niu. See, my parents moved from Kaimuki to Niu when I was 12 years old, and mama would hear the night marchers come down Hawaii Loa Ridge, which is very understandable. And then they would go along, right in front of the house. She got up and watched them, she wasn’t makau. But it isn’t… the huakai po is something we just grew up with. We weren’t frightened by it, there was no makau, it was just part and parcel of what we understood to be, the old folk’s way.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Ae.

AE: Sometimes the parents would scare you too, they’d tell you “Don’t go over there.”

TGP: Uh-hmm. And my mom would tell stories of having seen the akua lele, the fire balls, and they’d run down the beach, wondering where it was going to land.

[pause – someone comes to the door]

KM: What is your sense of this land, and then preservation of what’s left of the Hawaiian sites, and care for these places, and the proposed development that they are looking at with Haseko? Do you have a…?

TGP: I find… well, my personal reaction is that I don’t believe the type of development that Haseko has in mind, is necessary. I don’t see a point in it. They were able to acquire acreage, to put in a marina [pauses] which, in my mind, doesn’t have… it has neither beginning… neither head nor tail. Why a marina? Why in Ewa? Why this tremendous undertaking at a tremendous risk, because we don’t know, as people have warned us, whether or not the aquifer would be disturbed or the drainage of the underground waters would occur. But I just don’t see the reason for it, a good solid necessity in back of the Haseko move, I don’t see it. I can understand the housing, but not roof to roof as we see here today. And I can understand the preservation of the beach area, and a low-style condominiums along the beach. But I really question the marina and the dynamiting of the shoreline. 

KM: Hmm. Were the ocean resources important then, and do they remain important to the people, you think?

TGP: I don’t think people really look to the resources as resources anymore. If they enjoy the beach, it’s because it’s available. If they go down to Oneula, it’s primarily to fish. You don’t see them in groups in any large numbers there, other than to picnic.

KM: Hmm. The community has changed drastically hasn’t it? After your time as a child, it sounds like there was no one out.

TGP:  That’s right.

KM:  Oneula, no one out here.

TGP:  That’s right.

KM: When did the plantation housing and the village come up. Do you recall now?

TGP: Ewa Village was the last plantation area of this whole locale, and Ewa Plantation was very much in the works, and they had their extensive cane fields, through Honouliuli and all the way around, along Farrington Highway, almost to Nanakuli. The cane lands and all, that was all ko. The changes have been tantamount, but they’ve come about primarily with the closing down of sugar.

KM: So as the sugar closed down, there was a need to make money in other ways and vast development was done? Like Koolina, or any of these housing developments? You’d mentioned, roof to roof.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: And of course as the population changed, I guess there’s not that sense of aloha.

TGP:  But you don’t really know which is the horse and which is the cart, which is before the other.  Was it the closing down of the plantation that caused the overextended development?  Or was the overextended development a part foreseen, and therefore, the plantations were closed down? Which came first? It’s hard really to know, because private enterprise being what it is, the labor unions… Actually the advent of the labor unions was the beginning of the end of plantation life.

KM: Hmm. You had mentioned earlier, you are, of the old part Hawaiian resident of the Puuloa-Honouliuli area, you are really amongst the last of the old timers that was here as a child.

TGP: I don’t know of anybody else, who’s older than I am, and who still resides here. And if there are people older than me, they came here after I had lived here.

KM: Hmm, that’s right. You folks have had a generational tie to this land also.

TGP:  Yes.

KM: Is it important to care for traditional Hawaiian sites?

TGP: Yes, very. Very important. But it is also as important to care for as it is to know the history and probably, if possible, how they came to be, and what their significance is in the area. And this is what Arline keeps insisting upon.

KM:  Yes, yes.

TGP: We know that there are sites, and we are beginning to understand why. I mean, these pits that are gold mines for the fossil findings and for the bones.

KM: Yes, Well, you also brought up, that interesting story that there were a poe ilio, you know, people that were of the dog clan.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Just like they have pueo, mano, and there were these ilio, people that were associated with the dog-like clan.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM:  And you have read, or heard that they lived within these pits?

TGP: Yes. Now the actual evidence of this information is hard to come by, it’s here and there. It’s scattered. Now Mary Kawena Pukui did a collection of stories of this area, and she’s quoted extensively in Elspeth Sterling and Catherine Summers’s Sites of Oahu [29]. And from that one volume, you can begin to deduct how much was known at the time, and how extensive the lore was for this area. There’s a great deal of lore associated with this area of Ewa.

KM: Hmm. While you were still young, it appears that you were not hearing a great deal of the lore though.

TGP: Nothing.

KM: How about of the shark gods, or things like that?

TGP: I can’t say that my father’s side of the family, my haole side of the family, knew anything about it. I really don’t believe they did. Perhaps great-grandpa Dowsett knew, because he was a student, and very astute type of person, and it could have been so well know, as not to have been something to seek after. It was just part and parcel of the place.

KM: Ae. Did you ever hear a story by chance, of a relationship between the Puuloa fishery, and this comes back to where your Ka-uku Kala was, and the fish migrating say between Puuloa and…?

TGP: Oh, the mullet, yes. I know by research that that happens, and that it was extensive and it was seasonal, it happened every year. And I do know from my mother’s telling, that there was an underground access for the mullet from Kahana Bay to Molii Fishpond.

KM:  Ae, so you heard of that Huilua Pond and the cave underneath?

TGP: Uh-hmm. And mama was taken into Pohukaina, into, and she has described the interior to me. But I don’t usually divulge what she has told me, simply because I don’t know how it is going to be understood.

KM: Ae.

TGP: It might sound a little far-fetched. And yet in my mind, it’s perfectly logical.

KM: Of course.

TGP: And I do know that Ka-uku Kala possessed the special mana of the kahuna nui, because mom said that when he took her into the cave, they had to leave their horses at a distance and walk—this was at Ka-lae-o-ka-oio—and walk towards the towering cliff at the northern point of what we know as Kanehoalani Range.

KM: Ae.

TGP: And then they went into a very, very narrow ravine, very narrow, and he picks up a stone, he knocks three times on the wall and the entrance appeared. And she was so astounded, she just grabbed his hand, and wondered what was happening.

KM: Hmm. Out of curiosity, did mama by chance, share with you, how did they see inside? Did it… I’ve heard from other people, not of that Pohukaina, necessarily, but of other places, that when you oli, or you pule, and it would illuminate so you could see. Did mama say how they saw inside?

TGP: She just sort of took it for granted, she could see, and she never expounded. I’ve often wondered, just how they could see. However, what she saw in there would necessitate the entrance of sunlight. So there was a visibility.

KM: Ae. It interesting to see that there is a relationship shared between these fisheries here in Puuloa and back to the windward side also. And then to hear about these caves, these subterranean accesses that may have existed, and perhaps still do.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Did Ka-uku Kala call on the fish, did mama say? You’d said that he was a fisherman, a chief fisherman for this fishery there.

TGP: Uh-hmm. I don’t know whether he called on the fish, but he had his shark, who led him to the fishing grounds. [smiling] Mom told a story of having begged him to take her out fishing with him, because he usually dropped her at the little bay on the outer side of Mokolii to spend the day while he went off fishing. And this one time, she asked to go along and while they were paddling, he says, “Now whatever you see, you mustn’t be afraid.” So she wondered, “What had she to be afraid of?” And they were paddling along, her paddle was on the ama or outrigger side, and her paddle hit something. And she was in far too deep water to hit anything. So when she looked there, and she must have been about six years old, and when she looked over, she saw this shark who was swimming with the canoe on the outrigger side. The fin was very visible to her, so she kept edging away from that shark side. She’d rotate as they had to paddle so many strokes on one side and so many strokes on the other side, and she kept edging her way until finally, she capsized the canoe.

KM:  Oh my!

TGP: All Ka-uku Kala did was to grab her by the hair and throw her on the shark, and she passed out. And when she came to, she was on Kualoa beach and she had to walk all the way home to Waikane.

KM:  Amazing.

TGP:  So, we do know that he had his shark, and he was an aumakua, a family aumakua.

KM:  Ae. Did he drive the fish?

TGP: It would lead him to the fishing spots. And then, mom had another very interesting experience as a little child. One day, she was at this little bay on the outside of Mokolii and it was noon and hot, so she decided she was going to go dog paddle in the water. So she goes out and was on her toes in the ocean when she feels something in back of her. And all of the sudden, she was sitting on something. And the honu, a turtle had come in and lifted her up and seated her, and then took her for a ride in the bay, made the circuit of the little place several times, and then it eventually took her all the way around Mokolii and back to the bay. And that honu befriended her for her lifetime. As long as she went back to Waikane, the honu would come, and knew just exactly when to expect her. And when she arrived at Kamaka Lane, at Ka-uku Kala’s home, they would see the honu making his way up the embankment, which was quite a steep embankment, up to greet her. She’d say “Yes, I’m coming tomorrow.” She’d promise, and the honu would turn around, and then she went swimming with her honu, the next day.

KM: Kupaianaha! It’s so wondrous, this relationship, you know. Out of curiosity, you were a Nun for 50 years.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Was mama brought up, also in association with the church? Did you choose the Catholic Church as yours? And how do you… as a Hawaiian of today, and you’ve lived, you know…?

TGP:  [chuckles]

KM: …nearly 80 years. And you grow up with these stories and understanding this deep relationship between nature and the environment…

TGP: But there is no conflict. There is absolutely no conflict between what is Hawaiian and what is non-Hawaiian, in me. Absolutely no conflict, and no… I don’t demarcate in any way, between the Hawaiianess of my life and the non-Hawaiianess. So having become a Sister of the Sacred Hearts was just what I wanted to do after my graduation from the University of Hawaii, with an anthropology degree. [chuckles] The Mother Superior asked me, “What are you going to do with anthropology if you’re going to be a sister?” And I said, “Well suppose I don’t make it as a Sister, I have something to fall back on.” But that’s how, I’ve always been interested in Hawaiiana, and in anthropology. Peter Buck was still alive in those days, and the anthropology department was brand new, and I had a reading knowledge of French so I did a lot of my research work in reading materials that were available at the Academy of Arts, in French. And the people in the department would come in and listen to my book reports, simply because they didn’t know French. So there’s no [pauses], in me there is absolutely no one part Hawaiian, one part, no Hawaiian. It’s all blended.

KM: Uh-hmm. And the relationship between people and the creation, is compatible, whether it’s in the Hawaiian or…?

TGP: Yes. Now people will ask me, “Do you believe in Pele, Madam Pele?” And I say, “Well, I don’t disbelieve.”

KM:  Yes, uh-hmm, it’s a part of God’s creation.

TGP:  It’s a part of what we’ve always known and will always revere.

KM: Out of curiosity, and we were speaking earlier about Mokapu, and that St. Katherine’s had been built there around January of 1843. And there is a picture, I tried to get a copy of it this morning, because I wanted to show you. But there was a Dr. Arning that was here in the 1880s, and he has a picture of the ruins of St. Katherine’s Church on Mokapu.

TGP: Yes, you can’t see anything now, it’s all grown over.

KM: No, it’s all gone. One of the things that’s happened is that at Mokapu, and this, what I’m leading into is, what is your sense then, as a Hawaiian, and as a person intertwining all of these skills, resources, knowledge, and spirituality? What is your sense of the burials? The rights of burials to the land, and Mokapu of course, you mentioned Buck, you probably knew Kenneth Emory…

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Going into anthropology. And you were an early Hawaiian in anthropology. Because there still aren’t many Hawaiians in the field. What was the sense of burials and place, and returning, and do you recall anything about Mokapu burials, by chance?

TGP: I really got into detail in Mokapu burials, in planning for this tour, which was fairly recent. I’ve known about the Mokapu burials for a long time. I just can’t understand why so much had to be done to these burials, just for the sake of giving people at the university a taste of archaeological pursuit. I just can’t see it. What did they expect to accomplish? And now, as they look back, there was nothing gained from it. Most of the positions of the remains were in positions that they’d already known about. They didn’t find anything new. They didn’t find any new artifacts. [chuckles] They didn’t find artifacts of any great extent. It was [sigh in exasperation], it was in my mind, as I look back at it, it was nonsensical to have ever done that.

KM: So Hawaiians in their burial customs and practices, what do you think then? As you’d said, nonsensical, this thing about Mokapu and stuff. Should they just originally be left in the ground, where they came from? And did you hear stories, in fact here at Puuloa, with all the these lua yeah? Did you ever hear stories about burial out here?

TGP: [shaking head]

KM: No. Interesting eh.

TGP: I don’t think this area was a long time area of habitation, although the legends would say to the contrary, because this is where the ulu was brought. But I just don’t know how to interpret it…

TGP/KM: [brief discussions regarding transposition of place names in some historical texts]

KM: …There are obvious remnants of remains. You know the salt works were important, and in the earlier days where the kaheka, the natural salt beds.

TGP/AE:  Uh-hmm.

KM: And like aunty Arline was saying when we’d met previously, there was this area where the ponds are back here, and the old house sites and wetlands [in the vicinity of Sites 3201, 3202, and 3205]. Water was such an important resources, and we were wondering about salt works, or making there. If the people didn’t live down here permanently, where did they live? Where were the people coming from that made use of these resources out here?

TGP: As I sort of surmise now, I think the large areas of habitation were Waikele and then down through the lower part of what we call Waipahu. Now Waipahu is not a proper name. It’s neither an area or an ahupuaa, it’s just a gushing well.

KM:  Ahh, yes, Wai-pahu, one site eh.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

AE:  That’s right.

KM:  [looking at Register Map 618] See where it says “Church” here?

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: This is in Honouliuli, right on the edge. There was all this taro land up here yeah?

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Do you think that that’s where the main people were living?

TGP: These taro lands of Honouliuli supplied the chiefs primarily. There weren’t any other taro lands, that I know of.

AE: Not over there.

TGP: And that’s why now, if the taro was here, the people were living not too far away from their taro lands. They had to work them, and the chiefly compound, at Waikele was conveniently close. Then, you also have Waipio with its ponds.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

TGP: So I would say that the main area of population circled the West Loch.

KM:  Ae. That’s interesting, and probably…?

TGP: Probably during seasons, they would come camp over here. They would have to bring their fresh water. Their tolerance of salt water could not extend for too long. [chuckles] You can’t do that for lengths of time.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

KM: And of course, it’s also very likely that before the cattle deforested a great deal of area here, that the water table into these lua meki, these pits and things, may have been, possibly, different also, There may have been a little more fresh water with good native ground cover, not like kiawe and stuff.

TGP: Well, the kiawe came in, in the 1820s.

KM:  Yeah, real early.

AE: They brought it in.

KM: Now, if the people then possibly were coming down here and fishing seasonally and then going back, this sounds like a practice, I think Aunty Arline, was saying that… Like the work that Tutu Kawena did, Eli Williamson, as a child yeah, she would come down to Kualakai…

AE: Yeah.

KM:  Seasonally, families were coming down and fishing, yeah.

AE: Yeah.

KM:  That was still happening.

AE: That was.

TGP: And it was a practice that was, I think, what you would call “Statewide.” You know the Kona area on the Big Island, Anaehoomalu, all the way to Kalahuipuaa, and then even further towards Kohala.

KM:  Oh yes, and to Kaupulehu and Kekaha also.

TGP: Uh-hmm. But the people from Anahulu came down and spent portions of the year at the shore.

KM:  Yes, like Alapai ma.

TGP: Right. And they had their shelters in these caves and they would bring only what was necessary and they would always take back their partially crystallized kai and finish making their salt mauka. So it was done, these seasonal treks to other areas.

KM: So that’s what you visualize as being the practice here?

TGP: Yes, rather than a permanent settlement of any sort here. I’ve never heard of… I think the permanency, the settlement was in the Waikele area. There are more legends related to that area.

KM:   Ae. It’s so interesting.

TGP:  [chuckling]

KM: This has been a rich kuka kamailio, talking story here about a variety of things. As a child, what are your fond recollections of this place? What are some of the activities that stand out?

TGP: I loved my grandmother. I was the oldest grandchild, and “Ama” was the name I gave her…

[end Side B, Tape 1; begin Side A, Tape 2]

TGP: [continues discussing her grandmother and her relationship to the Parkers]

… grandmother, Mary Parish.

KM:  And what was her relationship to the Parkers?

TGP: She was the sister of Tootsie, or Elizabeth Jane Dowsett-Parker, who later married Knight, and then later married Woods. But as Parker’s wife, she gave birth to Thelma Parker, her first and only child. Who in turn, became the mother of Richard Smart.

AE:  That’s so interesting.

TGP: So my grandmother and Richard’s grandmother are sisters, and so Richard and I are third cousins. And my father and Thelma Parker were in love with one another, and had they not been first cousins, they would probably have married [chuckles].

KM:  [chuckling] it didn’t stop a lot of people.

TGP:  Yes, but I think Aunty Tootsie had more to say about that [laughing].

KM: Ahh. So, you loved coming down here?

TGP: Yes. And Ama would go to Kamuela almost every year, with Aunt Tootsie when Aunt Tootsie would come from her home in Los Gatos, and spend time on Parker Ranch. And then Ama would come back to us here with the lauhala hats that she would purchase at Do Ching Store in Kamuela, and then she would line them. I had the blue lining, a bandanna, and my brother had the red lining. And so we always had our lauhala hats when we were playing on the beach. We didn’t dare go without a hat, it was “Where’s your hat? Go get your hat.” [chuckles] I think, I our lauhala hats and our sausage bag eke, were really what I remember most about Kupaka [chuckling].

KM: Hmm. Were there any Hawaiian, permanent residents, cowboys, down here at all, or was the ranch pretty much pau?

TGP: I don’t remember anyone living here, any of that.

KM: So papa them would come down weekends?

AE:  Weekends.

KM:  So basically, the ranching operation itself, didn’t require a big labor force, there weren’t a bunch of paniolo?

TGP: No, no, no.

KM:  How do you say the word “paniolo,” or “paniola”?

TGP:  Paniolo.

KM: Okay.

TGP:  No, this skeleton crew, I’m going through some letters that I have.

AE: No, not too many.

TGP: No. Now, these letters were written between my grandmother and my great grandfather, when my grandfather acquired Ulupalakua Ranch on Maui. And my grandmother and her husband, Leonard Parish went up to run the ranch for my great grandfather. And the letters indicate just how… well, all the goings on at Ulupalakua and again here at Kupaka on Puuloa. And they always refer to the area as Puuloa in the letters. And they refer to James Dowsett Jr. as recuperating here.

AE: So we’re not sure yeah, from what.

TGP:  And I know it was in the area, but I don’t know where. Probably, and if get together…

AE: [pointing to the Puuloa houses marked on the map] Probably those houses down there.

KM: There’s little houses indicated down here, in amongst these walled enclosures.

TGP: Oh, uh-hmm.

KM:  You’ll see it better on your map. But, it’s very interesting.

TGP: There was nothing mauka?

KM: Well, there were, but see, this map is 1873, so it doesn’t reflect what occurred a little later, you know?

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

KM:  You know, I just look at this land, the rich fisheries, you know that there had to be activity, even if it was people coming across occasionally.

TGP: Yeah.

KM: And still, the Honouliuli taro farmers were still active at that time.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

AE: You know, sister, I can’t remember the name, but I’ll find out, somebody told me that there was a ranch right across here, right next to the shopping center. They gave me the name of the family, but I don’t recognize it.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

AE: I’ll find out for sure from Amber.

KM: That [looking at the map] Robinson Ranch, was somewhere makai.

AE:  I remember you’d said that.

KM:  Where would you place us, where we’re sitting, on this map? If this is Oneula, we’re just a little bit over here?

TGP:  Yeah, Haseko takes in this area.

KM:  Yeah, it comes behind Oneula.

TGP/AE:  Uh-hmm.

KM:  Did you remember ever hearing this name, “Kualakai” or “Kualakai,” as a place name here?

AE: That’s where the lighthouse was.

TGP: [shaking head no]

KM: So you don’t remember hearing that name?

TGP:  No. It was only Barber’s Point, Ewa Village, and Oneula, above use.

KM:  Very interesting.

TGP:  Mary Pukui came down in this area. She talks about those dogs.

AE: Her dog.

KM: And the huakai eh.

AE:  Uh-hmm.

KM: Oh, mahalo. Thank you so much for just being willing to talk story.

TGP:  Uh-hmm.

AE/TGP: [brief discussion of how place names are being mispronounced and improperly translated]

[tape off, then back on]

KM: [the aunties were talking about new place names in the Ewa District, and how inappropriate they were, some not even of Hawaiian origins] … Haseko’s looking at place names. What do you feel about that? If they’re going to this development, shall they just name it whatever they like, “anywheres-ville” or try to use names that are…?

TGP:  There’s no excuse for them not to research and find names applicable to the area. There’s no excuse for their not finding applicable names.

AE: I believe that they got Keone Nunes to come in and sit in, and talk to about that. Like Keone says, he doesn’t come from this area, and I know that Rubellite [Johnson] did the names in Kapolei, and I made mention of this, that if there was anything of… You know, because she does extensive research work. Somebody that knows, not just any old body, making a name for here. That’s what happened with that Gentry, they just… look at the names they have.

TGP: It reflects a good deal of the poe haole thinking.

KM: Ae.

AE:  ‘Uh-hmm.

KM: That’s back of all of this kind of development.

AE:  [chuckles] She’s telling that, every time I hear her, I think “Oh oh, there’s sister now talking about the poe haole.”

KM: But you know, it’s true, if they were so in love with El Dorado and all this stuff, maybe they should go back and live there.

AE: Yeah.

TGP:  It’s so stupid! To have to put up with this nonsensical names.

AE: In fact, when we were going to the council for Haseko, and that fellow that helps with that development, that Japanese fellow from Gentry, he was there. And I asked him, “Where do you folks get your names from? Don’t you research? There are so many beautiful names, why?” And he said “We don’t do anything with it, there’s a department.” I said, “you’re in charge of these things, aren’t you interested in what’s going on?” Well, it ended up with giving us some money. But you know, the money didn’t have anything to do with it. We put it into the community foundation and all that, but still, you know. And I know that Haseko has lost quite a bit of money, millions of dollars.

TGP: Well, just these delays, every day costs something.

AE:  They’re not shrewd or anything, they’re just losing the money.

KM: Ah-well, mahalo. Thank you, thank you so much.

TGP:  You’re welcome.

KM: For being willing to talk story.

TGP: It’s been a pleasure.

KM: This manao is very important, and I see it for broader things. I look forward to seeing you again. And if there is anything I can do to be of help, please let me know.

Following the interview, Sister Parish shared several other short historical recollections, among them was the tradition of Kahahana having his priest Kaopulupulu killed and the prophecy at Puuloa:

Puu kahea in the Waianae District is a very important place in the history of Oahu. It is where the chief Kahahana was when he ordered the death of the high priest Kaopulupulu and his son, Kahulupue. At Nanakuli, Kahahana failed to acknowledge the calls of his priest, and it was from that area, that Kaopulupulu then instructed his son to run to the ocean, for their revenge would come from across the sea. Kaopulupulu was killed at Puuloa. A short while after that, Kahahana himself was killed by his uncle Kahekili of Maui, who had turned him against the aged priest Kaopulupulu. Thus the prophecy was fulfilled.